Thought experiment: trans child raised by wolves

[MyAmpleSheep]

If a trans child was raised by wolves, would they still be trans? Would they still be at war with their own penis, or hope for a mastectomy?

According to comic book lore, the superhero Wonder Woman hails from the island of Themyscira, also known as Paradise Island, home to female warriors known as the Amazons. Are there inhabitants of Themyscira - all female - who, never having known any men, identify as male? If so, would they independently invent the checked shirt?

Ok - the bit about the shirt is tongue in cheek - but I'm curious what an orthdox gender identitarian answer would be to the other questions.

Are thoughts, feelings, behaviours real?
Do we have behaviours that are built in to our biology? I think the overwhelming consensus in biology is yes, that is very likely. So it is likely, given the observational evidence, that trans people exist. We still don't know enough about the brain to state anything else with certainty.

Of course trans people exist. What does not exist is any scientific basis for their belief - and their over-enthusiastic insistence on everybody else believing it - that human beings can change sex.

I am confident that wolves know the difference between male and female and don’t faff about with any kind of gender woo. Postmodernism is not a good survival strategy in the forest so any wolf caught reading Foucault would have a lot of explaining to do.

But I think that without knowing the concept "man" and "woman" you would simply be a woman. There are all sorts of women who have all sorts of feelings about their bodies and the way you feel about your body would just be one of those ways. There would be different "types" of women .

Which do you think is made first, your body or your feelings and behaviours?

Children "raised by wolves" or "feral children" as I think you're referring to, rare as they are, have seldom assimilated into human society or learned to communicate normally, so their thoughts or beliefs about their gender would probably not be known.

So just like now? I am a woman who mentally wrongly sees her body with male attributes. If that didn't change, then I'd still be trans, just without being able to put words on it, and possibly without knowing what I could do to feel better about it.

But then again, maybe the women on Themyscira would know about women like me, and have a strategy to deal with them...

We don't know for sure, but it is widely accepted that feelings of sexuality are innate, biological and immutable. It is a reasonable assertion that genuine trans people have similar innate feelings. Of course they can't change sex. Of course women's sex based rights must be protected. But gender might well be as real as sex.

somebody should write a story about this
it would have to include stuff like how the human child learns to get along with the wolves and other animals and as you say what happens when he sees other hairless wolves for the first time

the wolves would feel sorry for the human child but eventually realise he had some advantages they did not have

No, not like now . We have the concept of "man" and "woman" , we know that they are physically different and boys and girls are treated differently.

Yes, but those concepts only influence my trans identity insofar as I feel I'm lying if I present as a woman. Without those concepts, I'd just be a woman who mentally sees herself with a weird body, and I don't see why that would change if I grew up among wolves or amazons. That mental map would still be there, even if I had no word to put on it.

Sorry but I am stuck on how any human reared by wolves and, therefore having no language, could formulate any thoughts beyond "food, sleep, warmth belong".

Accepted but not proven. It remains a theory. No one has identified the genes for this, like we have for hair colour and eye colour and biological sex.

We do not know if sexual preference is innate therefore that can't be used as evidence that wishing you were the opposite sex is also an innate behaviour. That's not denying that some people have feelings that they label in this way.

Ateotd feelings are just nerve pathways firing in the brain and body, and they can be trained and retrained a lot of the time.

What does 'present as a woman' mean in a society where anyone of either sex can wear any clothes they like, have any haircut, wear any style of shoes, wear makeup or not bother?

It's a false premise. There is no such thing as a trans child.

Anorexic people exist, people who have a desperate need to have a limb cut off exist, people who have radical cosmetic surgery on their faces exist, people who think the world would be a better place if they were dead exist. Why is the specific body dysmorphia of believing you are the wrong sex given such reverence and why is so much effort put in to convincing us all that it is 'real' and not just another dysfunction?

Yes, anyone can wear etc... whatever they like, but it remains that some things are still gender coded. Otherwise, the whole concept of drag wouldn't exist.

And so for me, presenting as a woman just means not making any particular effort to present as a man, while presenting as a man means using male coded stuff and getting rid as much as possible of any female coded attributes - ie. getting rid of my breasts, growing a beard, etc...

Of course it would have thoughts, it would have a human brain, they would be in wolf language though maybe?

Well no, because they'd have a perfect excuse to be flurries instead.

What is 'male coded' stuff these days?

Does a woman who has a double mastectomy for cancer now have a 'male coded' body?

Kicking back against the social pressures on women to look a certain way, brilliant. Bring it on. But claiming that doing this makes you somehow a man just limits women. We need more freedom, not less.

You're putting words in my mouth. I never spoke of male-coded bodies, only female-coded attributes. I never said presenting as a man makes me somehow a man, because it doesn't.

You're not addressing me, just your idea of what you think I am.

You're absolutely right, 'trans child' is a term that places children who may have a range of feelings about their bodies and their sexuality and their interests and the clothes they like, on tram-tracks towards being identified as transgender, with the added danger of 'gender affirming medical care' along the way.

I think it was overlooked because of the fantastical and slightly humorous tone of the OP, posters replied 'in kind', so to speak.

But you're right to put down that clear marker that there is no such thing as a trans child.

Can you answer any of my questions?

For all the good it will do...

"What is 'male coded' stuff these days?"

A beard. A male haircut. Clothes and shoes bought from the male aisles. Even male deodorant. Can women use them? Yes. Do some women use them? Also yes. Are they male-coded still? Yes too - and that's enough for me.

"Does a woman who has a double mastectomy for cancer now have a 'male coded' body?"

I never mentioned anything about male-coded bodies. But while we're at it, will you answer a question of mine? Many such women, who have had double mastectomies, undergo yet another surgery to reconstruct their breasts. My question to you is: why? Why do they do that?