Thought experiment: trans child raised by wolves

[MyAmpleSheep]

If a trans child was raised by wolves, would they still be trans? Would they still be at war with their own penis, or hope for a mastectomy?

According to comic book lore, the superhero Wonder Woman hails from the island of Themyscira, also known as Paradise Island, home to female warriors known as the Amazons. Are there inhabitants of Themyscira - all female - who, never having known any men, identify as male? If so, would they independently invent the checked shirt?

Ok - the bit about the shirt is tongue in cheek - but I'm curious what an orthdox gender identitarian answer would be to the other questions.

Well your asking the wrong people as we tend to be gc rather than gi. May I suggest that you ask redit to get an answer from the gender idealogs.

I know. But there are some trans people who write here.

I'm confident those questions would be insta-deleted from Reddit.

Well, in my particular case, the first answer that came to me was, "Yes, I'd still be trans", followed by "Hm, it depends."

Yes because my being trans is not dependent on other people. I've seen my body as being a male body since childhood. If I were raised by wolves and I still saw it that way, then I'd still be trans, no matter that I've never seen a male human body. I'd still know that something is wrong.

But then there comes the question as to why I see my body that way. Did something happen to make me see it that way? Is it for example a response to what someone else said or did? In that case, it would depend on when that event happened, if it was before or after I would have been lost/abandoned.

Now, if I were raised on Themyscira, I suspect things would turn out like they did in real life: I'd deny my feelings to please everyone around me and follow the rules. I'd just be a massive weirdo who never manages to feel comfortable in her own skin and doesn't know why. Heh.

Wouldn't it be better for a furry to raised by wolves? Ideally one that identifies as a predatory animal and not something like a sheep.

Without a concept of other humans, sex, sex based stereotypes and expectations and forms of gender expression, I don't see it would be possible.

@Seethlaw So you only saw female bodies as a child? You never saw any men at all? Not even a post man or a bus driver or a man walking in the street?

Doesn't this assume, though, that other people do feel comfortable with their bodies? Because they don't. It's normal not to feel comfortable with your body. It's also normal to put those feelings aside in order to get on with life, to not share them with others, to feel ashamed of them, and not not really understand them.

All normal.

Er, no, obviously not? Not sure what I said to give that impression, but that wasn't my intention.

Well then, I don't get it. If people had access to a way to feel better about their body, wouldn't they reach for it?

But in this case wouldn't it be wanting to feel better about their body in comparison to.... what?

Are we talking body dysmophia here where there just is a significant issue with the relationship between the psychology and the physical self that any external body is wrong? And wouldn't that have to have a cause?

If it involves medications and surgery, no, most people don't, especially not if their body is healthy. They find other ways to cope. They understand that feelings aren't facts. Given that bodies constantly change throughout life, it's impossible to always have a body that looks and works as you wish it would. That's just part of being human, of being alive.

without language they would have no concept of sex, gender, trans etc

I disagree that feelings aren't facts - for oneself. My feelings aren't facts for other people, but they are very much facts for myself. My feelings of love for my close ones, for example, are very much facts said close ones can depend on. Those feelings are not going to change on a whim tomorrow. So is my feeling about my body as I see it: it hasn't changed since I was at least 6, so I see no reason to assume it will change tomorrow. I've been happy (another feeling) with the changes I've made for over a decade, and I see no reason to expect that this will change.

But feelings do change, sometimes unexpectedly. You are happy with the changes you've made now, but you may feel different in another ten years, with more life experience and new information. You may discover something about a loved one that completely shifts your feelings for them. Things just aren't that certain, ever.

And they're still not facts.

I think what the other poster meant was that feelings about the sexed body are not facts about the sexed body.
So, for example, if someone feels that they are female but their body is male, it is not wrong or bad of someone else to refer to them using terms we use for males. Regardless of their feelings about that.

Basically, feeling like your normal, healthy body is wrong = not a fact
Feeling that X body part is unattractive = not a fact
Feeling that life would be better if you changed x body part = not a fact
Feeling 'I'm the opposite sex on the inside' = not a fact

True, my feelings about my body may change tomorrow. But so what? It won't change the fact that I've been happy with those changes for more than a decade. If things change, then I'll deal with the change, but I won't regret making the best decision I could at the time.

You mention feelings for our loved ones changing when we discover new things. Indeed, this has happened to me, big time. But I never regretted the way I lived, the decisions I made, back when I thought better of that person.

What matters to me is to be true and faithful to myself. That means taking care of myself as best as I can now, and if things change in the future, respecting my past self for having done the best they could. On the contrary, I would have no respect for myself, past or present, if I didn't do the most I can today. In fact, I couldn't live at all if I went, "But things could change completely tomorrow."

None of which means that feelings are not facts.

Okay? And?

If a child was raised by wolves and had never seen a human being, I'd have thought any body dysmorphia would be concerned with the fact they didn't have the body of a wolf, rather than the sex of their human body.

So you know feelings aren't facts, you know they can change in an instant, but you don't think that managing the feelings is better than damaging the body?

Presumably if a baby were brought up by wolves it would worry about its hairless body and blunt teeth.

A child raised by wolves would feel slow, chilly, and lacking in essential tools for catching lunch. They may try and remedy that by taking the fleece of the animal they are and wearing it, or by making points to carry around for biting and grabbing with.

They’d be a transwolf. Not a wolf, but copying the behaviour of the wolves in an attempt to fit in.

Oops, I meant 'None of which means that feelings are facts.'!

And on seeing other hairless wolves for the first time, they’d be fascinated.

I tried to manage the feelings for over 30 years. It didn't work out. It would have been stupid to keep trying. I tried something else; it worked. I have zero regrets.