Am I naive in thinking that in a couple of years, if not sooner, this will all be behind us? A few court cases, people clear about the law, women's rights protected again??

[loveyouradvice]

And yes the noisy TRA far fewer in number and sidelined as the sad fringe that are left as others move on.....

Or do others think it will pan out differently??

And why do you have to buy oestrogen? Because as a male, you don't have it in sufficient quantities. So any tissue you grow is drug based and male, as I said.

We can all see who's propagating myths, and it's not the person saying 'male breast tissue, grown in a male body by a man on cross sex hormones =/= female breasts'.

Good heavens.

Just use the unisex loos!

Mmm this is a losing argument and I think you know it

Any man can grow breast tissue. It’s called gynecomastia and is a side effect of some fairly common medications.

https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/gynecomastia/symptoms-causes/syc-20351793#:~:text=Enlarged%20breasts%20in%20men%20(gynecomastia)&text=Gynecomastia%20(guy%2Dnuh%2Dkoh%2DMAS%2Dtee%2Duh)%20is%20an%20increase%20in%20the,of%20breast%20gland%20tissue%20in%20boys%20or

It's interesting that the literal first study they have compares trans people with surgery to the general population.

I wonder why they didn't cross reference that with other trans people who haven't had any operation.

Oh yeah, because it doesn't suit their narrative.

https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/26318318231189836

So you'll stop campaigning to ban healthcare if trans people only use unisex facilities, then?

The literal study I linked said Trans womens breast tissue and gynaecomastia are not the same.

I don't actually. None of the junk science posted so far has convinced me that an breast tissue grown on a male body is anything other than male.

Because I have a mental health condition called Gender Dysphoria which shoes that oestrogen is the correct treatment option. Its also a prescription given to me by the NHS.

It also didn't say it was the same as female breast tissue, just similar.

'Science I disagree with the findings of' <> 'Junk Science'

You have displayed your absolute narcissism on this thread, and your hideous post of yesterday horrendously equating your feelings with people who were involved in actual genocide only revealed how far removed from reality you are, but I see that now you and @AYoungTransWoman are introducing the discredited 'suicide theory' to this thread, you are indicating that you could not stoop any lower if you tried. What sort of mind cheer leads for the suicide of young, vulnerable people in order to validate their insidious, regressive, homophobic, misogynistic agenda?

I will be reporting any of your posts that refer to this but i will not engage with someone so devoid of humanity. I told you to fuck off yesterday, I repeat that today with bells on.

It's not conditional, butters.

It's the law.

Just use the unisex toilet. Like millions of other people.

Because you are male with a mental health condition, as you said.

Do you know what has caused your gender dysphoria?

What part of that paper do you think I have missed? What have I said that is the 'opposite' to that paper?

Even the paper says 'similar'. Care to tell me how male 'breast tissue' becomes the interactive system that is behind the breast and endocrine system of a female person?

I look forward to you telling me how this happens. Shall I wait?

Or have you over reached here?

My bad, I did mix up primary and secondary. It's just that my mind went directly to the primary characteristics, because you mentioned a "real" transition, when in fact, we're just talking about skin-deep cosmetic changes. Or rather, no, we're not, because there are very important risks to taking cross-sex hormones, but that's precisely because they are cross-sex, ie. because we don't actually change sex at all.

So? Men still aren’t women. But any man can grow breast tissue in the right circumstances.

No, because I'm a transgender woman with a recognised condition known as gender Dysphoria ICD-11.

Yes, thats the same thing. “Transgender women” are male. And anything in the DSM is a mental health condition, broadly speaking.

Now, you see, there's patience. Common or garden ordinary patience. Which undoubtedly I have.

But then there's Helleofabore Patience.

The sort of patience that regular patient people can only dream of. The sort of M&S, dripping in chocolate patience, covered in nuts and with a gooey marshmallow centre.

Actually it's Tunnocks patience. <lightbulb>

Yes. You are a male person with a recognised condition. It doesn't make you not a male person.

Gender dysphoria, yes, and I’m sorry you have this but every single trans woman is male.

As for breasts, mine are small. I know men whose breasts look bigger than mine. However, they are still men with breasts and I am still a woman. You can’t change sex. You can change the way you look to some extent, but your sex remains unchanged.

Wow - gish gallop!

In response to that BMC reference: already dealt with here: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5333913-cass-report-biased-and-unreliable

In response to everything else:

My "ideology", such as it is, is that people with female bodies face material social and physical consequences because of our different physical capabilties to male, our higher reproductive burden, and because our society is structured economically, politically and culturally around certain sexist assumptions about female capabilities, female social roles and male sexual responses, and that is it reasonable and moral to expect society to recognise this, to act to eradicate through education and understanding those risks and disadvantages that it can, and to put measures in place to mitigate what it can't, so women are not disadvataged relative to men in living lives of agency and making best use of their abilities to live lives they consider worthwhile. Yer bog standard basic feninism really.

I don't care if people adopt the stereotypical clothes, interests, presentations, mannerism, whatever of the opposite sex. In fact as a gender critical feminist I think it's great to see men clearly demonstrating how stereotypically "woman's" stuff is entirely accessible by men, and vice versa.

I care about "trans" people (other than caring about them in general as human beings) only to the degree that the genderist ideology many subscribe to asserts that female experience, needs, language, voices and indeed feminism itself must be remade to accomodate the beleif that certain people with all the advantages of being male/men can be treated as interchangable with female people in all things because by virtual of some undefiniable quality of "woman in the head". That all the reasons women need their own support, space, opportunities and protection because of how people react to our bodies just melt away when it comes to these specific men. That womanhood is not simply a matter of the body in which one is born, but is in fact a mental difference just as all those sexist men who kept us out of power and work and society and respect because our female brains weren't deisgned for such things always claimed.

Gender ideolofy is degrading, belittling and insulting to the real world lives and challenges that women face every day just for being female and I will never be bullied into saying it is ok.

Newsflash: sex exists. How you personally feel about your sex does not materially change the fact of it. How you personally feel about your sex does not change how women's sex affects our lives in ways yours does not. None of the gish gallop "points" you make to try and pull words over eyes change that. You are just trying to move the goalposts and hope no one notices it.

So while you are throwing a whole load of words out there to imply people, and specifcally me, are trying to stop you being "who you are" because of your body, the reality is that all I, and I would suggest almost everyone else who disagrees with you, actually wants is that you cease your attempts to undefine and delegitimise the social, legal and political existence of women as a sex class, to appropriate the social, physical, legal and political rights, opportunities and protections of female people, and to overwrite the reality, the history and the needs of the half of the population that turn up every day of their lives physically female and deal with what that means, for better or for worse, in nothing more than service of your own self image.