Am I naive in thinking that in a couple of years, if not sooner, this will all be behind us? A few court cases, people clear about the law, women's rights protected again??

[loveyouradvice]

And yes the noisy TRA far fewer in number and sidelined as the sad fringe that are left as others move on.....

Or do others think it will pan out differently??

And yet again, because you didn’t seem to take it on board on any of the other posts where this has been pointed out to you:

You having been able to do as you please up until now - whether it was to the detriment of others or not (it would seem that you don’t care if it was) - and that now having been stopped is not “transphobia”. Your life has not been “detonated”, you just don’t like being told “no”. And I suspect the “abuse” you “suffer” when asking people “to treat you like a human being” actually translates as “I see anything other than full affirmation and acceptance of my demands as abuse”.

If you do get abuse then that is wrong, although I suspect you’d have shared some proof by now if it was anything other than your own interpretation. But being told you have to abide by the same rules as everyone else is entirely reasonable. Maybe exert some of the effort you expend on your hyperbolic creative writing efforts on coming to terms with the fact that you are not a woman, you have no rights to access our spaces, and that is just how it is.

“who constantly abuse you when you ask them to treat you like a human being”

I hope no one is abusing you.

When you are asking them to treat you like a human being, are you demanding that they act as if they support your belief that you are something that you are not? What do you expect when you say ‘treat you like a human being’ ?

For instance, does that mean ‘act as if I am a woman and allow me to access single sex provisions’?

Oh you silly poppet! This isn't because you ask to be treated like a human being, it's because you ask (demand!) to be treated like the opposite sex!

Honestly, if you just stop projecting this idea that anyone who doesn;t see you as a woman hates you, and accept that this is all just down to you being a man in physical reality but insisting that something in how you feel means you must be treated as if you were physically a woman, you'd see all this fear is of your own making.

It is your own inability to accept that others have a right to not accomodate your fatasy of womanhood that is the boogeyman here, not other people.

She will be delighted at the idea of half done qualifications 😂

We have constant 'discussions' around safety as I have a wood workshop with lots of dangerous machines - though I don't have a table saw / chainsaw / circular saw or angle grinder out of respect to her views...

So far - I have had one workshop injury (tape measure pinged back!)
My wife has had numerous injuries from sharp knives in the kitchen - ironic considering she is a surgeon!

It sounds as though you know what you are doing though... 😀

“legal machinations of people who constantly abuse you when you ask them to treat you like a human being”

What legal machinations? Who are the people you refer to?

Are you referring to For Women Scotland ? Is someone taking you to court or tribunal ? Is it because you insist on accessing female single sex provisions?

Or was this just more hyperbole that is now sounding highly paranoid?

And love, acceptance and tolerance are expressed to parents of trans people by ... going no contact. Very loving, accepting and tolerant of people who see you differently from how you see yourselves.

It is not tolerant, or accepting, or loving, to make a relationship conditional on changing one's worldview. I accept my son as I see him, not as he sees himself. Do you understand what I am saying?

"You demand internal consistency from others whilst absolving yourself from that requirement."

No, it's the other way around: I demand internal consistency from myself, while letting others deal with me as they wish. I demand myself to face the truth of my situation, while letting others choose how they wish to answer my request to be treated as a man. The only demands I make are on myself, and none on others. I make requests from others, but if they don't want to, that's fine with me, because I know my situation is inherently self-contradictory anyway.

I have a great relationship with my parents because they accept me for who I am.

I have no idea what your relationship with your kid is like but accepting them for who they are (be that daughter or non-binary) is in their best interests and the best way to maintain a healthy relationship. Love doesn't mean rejecting your child for who they tell you they are. You do not get to decide what path your child takes, they get to decide. You get to choose whether to love them for who they know they are, or reject them.

The choice is you're but don't be surprised if they react negatively if you choose the second option.

Well… I ‘half’ know what I am doing. 😁. But I also grew up on a farm so I am pretty used to being very careful around machinery and tools. And knives. But I have had severe paper cuts and from the lead capsules on wine bottles!

I think “love, acceptance and tolerance” are words that have been redefined to now also mean the very opposite of the original intended meaning. These are just some of the words that have become meaningless.

If you want a discussion where your views are respected, then you do need to think about posting with a little more accuracy for people to respect that view...

You talk about transphobia - that easy label thrown around as a catch-all, 'I have won the argument' and you are not allowed to argue back -but do you understand what it really means?

• Trans = transition - we know that it is biologically impossible to transition from one sex to another you remain a man / woman, but with a distorted body
• We know that you can't transition gender either - you simply expand the shape or scope of your gender - you help to redefine what it means to be a man / woman.
• Phobia = fear - no fear being shown here, anger and frustration that society has been captured by a bunch of lies and as a result has been distorted - leading to inequity for women...

So, put simply - transphobia is not a thing - can't be.

You then talk about your life and career being detonated.
If a lie being uncovered causes that effect - whose responsibility is that? Should we as a society allow or cover up all lies to stop those perpetuating them from feeling offended or having to suffer the consequences, or is it fairer to allow those who have gained from the lie for decades to experience the outcome when the lie is uncovered?

The reality is that the Supreme Court judgment was hugely critical in the affirming the rights of women - it didn't change anything for those who are men pretending to be women. The EA has been in place for 15 years, men have never had a right to go into women's single-sex spaces and that existing state of affairs has simply been confirmed. It has no detriment to those believing themselves to be 'trans' - as a transwoman, you are a man, should always have been using the men's loos and spaces, and that continues. There is no need for third or fourth spaces - there are two sexes, both get a set of loos - use the one for the sex you were born / and remain.

If there are other consequences in career or real life, they are consequences from the lie that was being perpetuated, and yes that will bring negative fallout to some, but to every wrong act there can be a negative outcome...

A farmer - oh dear, no hope then! 😂
Look after yourself! (water from the tap doesn't have those pesky lead capsules!)

Yip, it's in it's death throes. The public sector can't afford the legal costs involved in fighting against reality. The private sector will take note and quietly creep back from mumbo jumbo.

@Helleofabore

"I have heard this type of pragmatism from several different people with transgender identities. And posters on MN tell us about their trans friends who live in this way. So I don’t believe it is rare. And I don’t believe it is unsustainable. I imagine to those people, acknowledging the material reality at least allows them to think clearly without the constant need to support an identity that relies solely on philosophical type theories such as post modernist theories."

Exactly.

What matters most to me in social interactions is presenting as a man, because of the persistent feeling that I'm lying if I present as a woman. How that male presentation is taken is not that important, really, because whatever people do, they are right anyway! If they sex me, well, I'm indeed female and that's a very important part of my life. If they gender me, I'm happy that they choose to acknowledge my efforts at presenting as male. Either way, they are interacting with a true part of me, so that's fine with me.

I had no idea that the foil around a bottle neck used to be lead capsules!

Yes. Still is on many bottles.

@ButterflyHatched

"That's the point. You are supposed to suffer. You are supposed to beg for scraps and plead and know precisely where you stand at all times, living in constant fear that they'll change the goalposts on you again.

And they will. Because nothing will ever be enough.

The sooner you realise this and stop chasing the impossibility of approval, the less damage you will do to yourself overall."

Er, I'm confused. Are you talking about me? Because none of this (or the rest of that post) has anything to do with my own life. I'm not suffering from being trans. I don't need approval from anyone. I'm not wanting anything from anyone. You, on the other hand...

Would that be your advice for parents of a daughter who has anorexia? Her parents have to accept that she is fat, because she knows that's what she is, or else they are rejecting her and not acting in her best interests?

Why does one false cognition - that she is 'really' the opposite sex - require unquestioning affirmation, if others don't?

Transitioning doesn't kill the person.

Starving yourself to death for anorexia does.

Butterfly seems remarkably keen to undermine Seethlaw's self perception. While demanding that others adhere to theirs.

The hypocrisy is strong in this one.

"Because nothing will ever be enough."

That's the lesson I learnt very quickly.

And the reason why I don't speak to my brother.

Great that you have a good relationship with your parents, but you have admitted that you are young, so you might not be in the best place to hand out parenting advice on a parenting forum - esp. as you have a biased interest...

Yes, one of the jobs of a parent is to understand their child, to nurture who they are and to help them develop to become the best shape 'Tommy' / 'Jane' / etc. they can - i.e to help them blossom into being themselves - not imposing the parental view only...

However, the job of a parent is also to protect and nurture the child - to help signpost and show them the road ahead - it is not to back off, accept anything the child tells them and affirm what is influenced mainly by peer pressure and social media, especially when so wrong.

All people are born male / female and can not change sex ever - regardless of what they are told by others. This means that the parent's job is to help them become 'their shape of boy or girl' not to believe that because they don't fit in entirely with a narrow societal definition they can somehow change - that is to tell them / affirm them in / propagate a lie - it is only to support them in a pathway which can never fully satisfy because it starts with lies and the only development can be an increasing understanding that they have been sold short.

So when a boy express himself in a 'feminine' way - is more sensitive, cries more easily, is nurturing and likes dolls - the answer is neither:

• be a boy, here is a gun to play with / man up / etc.
• nor, oh you must be a girl, here are some drugs and let's chop off your bits...

The answer is to affirm that the child can be a sensitive boy, can look at nurturing careers and that it is okay to cry / dislike football / etc. - i.e. help them develop their sense of who they are as a boy...

Similarly with girls who are tomboys / want to play rugby or be in the military or do a science job, be a truck driver or builder - great, support them in that and affirm the type of girl they are and the woman they will become - but don't tell them lie and say that you are a boy, here is a binder and some surgery...

When you see influences taking your child away from that true affirmation into a corrupted web of deceit and belief that they are somehow something they are not and can never be - when you see suggestions of living that lie with changes in pronouns and then medication and surgery - it is the parent's job to say that this is harmful for my child - this is a safeguarding issue and child abuse from those supporting / promoting it - I will not stand by as a parent and allow this to take place...

The very concept that the child knows best and should be affirmed regardless is a very modern view from your generation - generation which often wants whatever it wants without understanding responsibility, or counting costs.

Sorry what does that have to do with Gender dysphoria? Dysphoria is mental distress caused by the primary and secondary sex characteristics a person has. I don't care what stereotypes I exhibit, my dysphoria is because the sex characteristics I was born with make me want to cry in a corner.

Transition is real, and the effects of hormones is a lot stronger than people think. It quite literally changed your secondary sex characteristics, especially when you start before puberty finished like I did.

I don't actually know the relative mortality rate of anorexia and medical/surgical transition. Do you?

However, I do know that both are deleterious to an individuals health, both physical and mental health. Many (most?) anorexia sufferers don't just starve themselves to death in a straight line, it's years of mental illness. Why should one person who 'knows' something about their body which is factually untrue be uncritically affirmed in their faulty cognition, and another thwarted in theirs?

I know a young person who 'knew' that the rabbits in the field behind her house were gossiping about her. Would her parents be acting in her best interests and supporting her well if they affirmed that belief? It wasn't going to kill her, and she sincerely beloved it to be true.

To a cluster B nothing can ever be enough, and they will just keep escalating to feed their emotional need for control and attention.