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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Am I naive in thinking that in a couple of years, if not sooner, this will all be behind us? A few court cases, people clear about the law, women's rights protected again??

1000 replies

loveyouradvice · 26/05/2025 23:04

And yes the noisy TRA far fewer in number and sidelined as the sad fringe that are left as others move on.....

Or do others think it will pan out differently??

OP posts:
Thread gallery
17
RedToothBrush · 27/05/2025 22:29

Igneococcus · 27/05/2025 22:22

Italian week at Lidl from Thursday, must stock up on nduja, might check if there are still some high courts lurking in the middle of our Lidl.

Every fucking time it's Italian week I go to three or four Lidls.

I am YET to find this illusive njuda.

I am TOLD it exists, but not at any of the branches I have been to.

And now you have just ruined it by giving everyone on MN the heads up and adding to the competition for it.

I had a plan of attack for Thursday...

BreatheAndFocus · 27/05/2025 22:30

ButterflyHatched · 27/05/2025 21:43

You've been in your career for decades. You've escaped the lean graduate years, clawed your way into earning some measure of respect in the workplace and though you still earn less than your male colleagues, you are at least accepted for who you are. You've built a social life both with out of work friends and colleagues, many of whom you have known for years by this point. They're a nice bunch - bit of a latent transphobia problem, but it never gets directed at you thankfully. The events of your childhood are a distant memory that rarely feels relevant. You made it. You're free. All that nightmarish awfulness is over, and you can put it all behind you.

You come into work one day and are told that from now on you must only use the male facilities.

You've never used them. Why would you? That would be ridiculous and nonsensical. Your colleagues would ask if you're having a laugh.

Wait, you...aren't? Seriously?

Wait, does that mean...you're one of them?

The temperature at work changes overnight. Your social life detonates. Everyone seems guarded around you. Tensions are suddenly running high. Nobody jokes anymore. Everyone is always whispering whenever you are just out of earshot. There is an unspoken 'but...' at the end of so many sentences. Everyone is waiting for you to say something. You have no choice - you have to eventually. It isn't how you'd have wanted to do this, but you might as well try and regain the initiative. You talk about your experiences; about what it's been like all these years.

You notice the little comments. The microagressions, now everpresently needling. You don't get invited to socials anymore - not in any glaring way, but over time it's starkly obvious.

You try and talk to people. It gets weird. You ask why you never get invited to socials anymore.

"Oh no, nobody has a problem. We just don't feel like it anymore."

"Oh I don't have a problem with any of that but it's just...you know. Different. Sorry."

One day, you're on a call-out. Some drunk dickhead tries to grope you. Your team would normally have your back, but nobody moves to stop him.

You try to bring it up later. Nobody wants to talk about it.

You start getting passed over for promotions. Eh it's fine, you have a job at least.

Of course you're the person picked for redundancy.

You apply for new position after new position.

You mysteriously never seem to get hired, despite being perfectly qualified and with plenty of experience. Weird - you were straight in the door for your last job a decade ago.

But that was before your life was detonated by an arbitrary court ruling funded by a multi-millionaire and an army of lawyers.

Why, why, why the ridiculous melodrama??! Do you have no self-awareness? Or do you know that’s all crap but think that people are so gullible they’ll fall for it? I honestly don’t get it.

This is what would happen:- Your colleagues would continue to treat you as they’ve always done. Some might notice you using the Gents but the reason will be obvious or explained to them by another colleague. That’s it. That’s what happens. If they have your back now, they’re not suddenly going to not have your back because you’re now using a different toilet!

Totallymessed · 27/05/2025 22:30

ButterflyHatched · 27/05/2025 21:43

You've been in your career for decades. You've escaped the lean graduate years, clawed your way into earning some measure of respect in the workplace and though you still earn less than your male colleagues, you are at least accepted for who you are. You've built a social life both with out of work friends and colleagues, many of whom you have known for years by this point. They're a nice bunch - bit of a latent transphobia problem, but it never gets directed at you thankfully. The events of your childhood are a distant memory that rarely feels relevant. You made it. You're free. All that nightmarish awfulness is over, and you can put it all behind you.

You come into work one day and are told that from now on you must only use the male facilities.

You've never used them. Why would you? That would be ridiculous and nonsensical. Your colleagues would ask if you're having a laugh.

Wait, you...aren't? Seriously?

Wait, does that mean...you're one of them?

The temperature at work changes overnight. Your social life detonates. Everyone seems guarded around you. Tensions are suddenly running high. Nobody jokes anymore. Everyone is always whispering whenever you are just out of earshot. There is an unspoken 'but...' at the end of so many sentences. Everyone is waiting for you to say something. You have no choice - you have to eventually. It isn't how you'd have wanted to do this, but you might as well try and regain the initiative. You talk about your experiences; about what it's been like all these years.

You notice the little comments. The microagressions, now everpresently needling. You don't get invited to socials anymore - not in any glaring way, but over time it's starkly obvious.

You try and talk to people. It gets weird. You ask why you never get invited to socials anymore.

"Oh no, nobody has a problem. We just don't feel like it anymore."

"Oh I don't have a problem with any of that but it's just...you know. Different. Sorry."

One day, you're on a call-out. Some drunk dickhead tries to grope you. Your team would normally have your back, but nobody moves to stop him.

You try to bring it up later. Nobody wants to talk about it.

You start getting passed over for promotions. Eh it's fine, you have a job at least.

Of course you're the person picked for redundancy.

You apply for new position after new position.

You mysteriously never seem to get hired, despite being perfectly qualified and with plenty of experience. Weird - you were straight in the door for your last job a decade ago.

But that was before your life was detonated by an arbitrary court ruling funded by a multi-millionaire and an army of lawyers.

Or... you just use the men's toilets, nothing happens, no-one says anything or looks at you, and life continues as before, just with you using the correct toilets. You seem to be living in a paranoid fantasy world, and it's clearly not making you happy.

Igneococcus · 27/05/2025 22:32

RedToothBrush · 27/05/2025 22:29

Every fucking time it's Italian week I go to three or four Lidls.

I am YET to find this illusive njuda.

I am TOLD it exists, but not at any of the branches I have been to.

And now you have just ruined it by giving everyone on MN the heads up and adding to the competition for it.

I had a plan of attack for Thursday...

I bought four packs last time because this is seriously one of the best recipes ever and both dp and ds love it too:
https://www.sainsburysmagazine.co.uk/recipes/mains/chicken-nduja-and-butter-bean-one-pot

Chicken n'duja and butter bean one pot recipe | Sainsbury`s Magazine

Spicy ‘nduja paste is an Italian spreadable pork sausage that gets its heat from Calabrian chillies. This chicken, 'nduja and butter bean one-pot recipe maximises on flavour and who doesn't love the ease of a all-in-one dinner.

https://www.sainsburysmagazine.co.uk/recipes/mains/chicken-nduja-and-butter-bean-one-pot

murasaki · 27/05/2025 22:33

Totallymessed · 27/05/2025 22:30

Or... you just use the men's toilets, nothing happens, no-one says anything or looks at you, and life continues as before, just with you using the correct toilets. You seem to be living in a paranoid fantasy world, and it's clearly not making you happy.

I think when someone has spent a large portion of their life making it all about them and how special they are, the fact that people might not care is both incomprehensible and utterly horrifying.

WeMeetInFairIthilien · 27/05/2025 22:36

RedToothBrush · 27/05/2025 22:29

Every fucking time it's Italian week I go to three or four Lidls.

I am YET to find this illusive njuda.

I am TOLD it exists, but not at any of the branches I have been to.

And now you have just ruined it by giving everyone on MN the heads up and adding to the competition for it.

I had a plan of attack for Thursday...

It's already out in my Lidl, they get the specials delivered on a Tues, pop them out when it is calm on a Tues evening/Weds.

murasaki · 27/05/2025 22:37

I don't like nduja, so will trade you my share for a high court.

WithSilverBells · 27/05/2025 22:37

Or... you use the men's toilets and everyone is pleased that you have finally stopped gaslighting them and the atmosphere at work improves significantly.

Gradually you realise that you are happy to own being a biological male, even if you still prefer to present in a stereotypically feminine way.

Your mental health improves and everyone lives happy ever after.
THE END

LadyBracknellsHandbagg · 27/05/2025 22:40

murasaki · 27/05/2025 22:14

Ah, it was you that elbowed me out of the way to get at it.

Yes, sorry, my bad, I just wanted to get it while it was there because once it’s gone it’s gone, as you know, Aldi won’t be restocking the Supreme Court.

RedToothBrush · 27/05/2025 22:41

WeMeetInFairIthilien · 27/05/2025 22:36

It's already out in my Lidl, they get the specials delivered on a Tues, pop them out when it is calm on a Tues evening/Weds.

Whhhhhaaaaa....

(Swears a lot).

LadyBracknellsHandbagg · 27/05/2025 22:42

rebmacesrevda · 27/05/2025 22:15

Bad luck. They have High Courts in Lidl if you're quick.

You’re joking, I bet they’ve all gone by now 😱

LadyBracknellsHandbagg · 27/05/2025 22:45

RedToothBrush · 27/05/2025 22:23

It's going to be one fucking funny film about a 5'2" woman who thinks she's a loan shark and tries to scare everyone but it all goes horribly wrong as she's a bit shit at being a gangster.

So she tells everyone if they don't sort their shit out they'll have her size 8s to deal with. Cos obviously they are all men and don't realise that she's only got size 4s.

Instead due to a strange inexplicable misunderstanding they are under the impression that's she a prestigious member of an illicit far right group (headed by JKR). All she has to do is give The Look.

You know The Look. The Look that mums, teachers (and definitely Datun) give kids that know they are being little dickheads. So they run around going 'please don't hurt me, I'm a poor vulnerable loan shark goon'. (That's the character played by Vinny).

Then bash everyone that owes money.

Oh and I demand a good car chase with plenty of crashes. I mean it's a Guy Ritchie film after all.

Please please please say you’ll have a Danny Dyer voice 🙏

LadyBracknellsHandbagg · 27/05/2025 22:47

Igneococcus · 27/05/2025 22:32

I bought four packs last time because this is seriously one of the best recipes ever and both dp and ds love it too:
https://www.sainsburysmagazine.co.uk/recipes/mains/chicken-nduja-and-butter-bean-one-pot

Well thanks for making me hungry right before bed!

MistyGreenAndBlue · 27/05/2025 22:48

ButterflyHatched · 27/05/2025 18:16

Oooh nice, I'm sending that one to a fiery short friend who has size 8 feet and a lifelong exasperation toward body policing just so she can see where we're up to on MN nowadays.

How... convenient
Is that the same friend who agrees with you about Datun's posts on MN or a different one? 😂😂😂

RedToothBrush · 27/05/2025 22:49

LadyBracknellsHandbagg · 27/05/2025 22:45

Please please please say you’ll have a Danny Dyer voice 🙏

I'm northern. I'm not doing a Danny Dyer accent on principle.

I can do a decent enough cliche Scouse gangster accent though.

LadyBracknellsHandbagg · 27/05/2025 22:51

RedToothBrush · 27/05/2025 22:49

I'm northern. I'm not doing a Danny Dyer accent on principle.

I can do a decent enough cliche Scouse gangster accent though.

😂 oh alright then, I’ll settle for Scouse gangster instead.

LadyBracknellsHandbagg · 27/05/2025 22:52

MistyGreenAndBlue · 27/05/2025 22:48

How... convenient
Is that the same friend who agrees with you about Datun's posts on MN or a different one? 😂😂😂

No, it’s another friend, you wouldn’t know them, they go to a different school.

LadyBracknellsHandbagg · 27/05/2025 22:56

ButterflyHatched · 27/05/2025 22:07

Are you really this devoid of empathy or is it just performative ingroup signalling?

‘Performative, ingroup signalling’ you say? Is that like men pretending that they’re women? Sounds very similar to me 🤔

ButterflyHatched · 27/05/2025 22:57

Helleofabore · 27/05/2025 22:09

yeah. That was garbled. I was typing quickly on my phone and made a hash of what I was attempting to say. I will redo it.

That is not even relevant to the point (whether that poster had family or not).

The point is you keep telling us stuff like

a constellation of statistically linked elements that together describe something almost intangible and linguistically elusive”

and

"I'm an adult human, and I recognise within myself a constellation of data points that I identify as female”.

But the reality is that you seem to have used your female family members as the reference base for 'womanhood'. Hence you posted about whether they fit into size 8 clothes as being somehow relevant to knowing whether RedToothbrushes' reference to 'size 8' meant clothes or shoes rather than using lived experience of being female. When whether your female family members could fit size 8 or not is not relevant to the point being made about your error. That is because understanding the reference comes from a lifetime experience of being a female person and being involved with those types of conversations, as a shared experience of being a female person. But either you fail to understand the points being made or you are desperately attempting to distract people.

We keep trying to tell you in so many different ways and have been for years, that being a woman is only something that female people can be. Because it is not open to a male person's interpretation. It is not learned from watching a select group of female people and how they live their lives but based on your male perspective.

Particularly when the female people you do seem to take notice of are potentially very heavily invested in keeping you happy and therefore may tell you things that are not really true. But that make you feel good. eg. about using female single sex spaces.

You have tried to define womanhood so that it will include you. Such as the examples I quoted above. You have tried out different definitions but none of them are based in material reality. That is what happens when you force open meanings of words to change the established meaning to include the opposite of the intended meaning.

But you don't even seem to be able to acknowledge just how limited your understanding of 'womanhood' is despite all the bravado about passing and how long you have been doing it. Yet so many of your posts show just how superficial your understanding of womanhood is.

You're really hung up on this family thing aren't you?

You could have replaced all those words with a copy-paste boilerplate about Female Socialisation or one of the other articles of GC Canon and saved yourself a lot of time.

You trip yourself up here, because you are invoking a specific interpretation of the concept of Female Socialisation to describe a set of stereotyped behaviours that have nothing to do with any reasonable definition of femaleness or indeed womanhood. Woman <> Clothing.

A woman is not defined by existing in a social group that has size 8 clothes featured more prominently on their radar than shoe size 8. You're effectively saying 'checkmate, impostor - only real women talk about small UK clothes sizes and no real woman would ever think 8 was a reasonable size for shoes.'

In any other context, this talk of essential female experiences would be rightly shot down as precisely the kind of gendered guff that a belief system that describes itself as 'gender critical' would seek to reject.

You are using them in this context to beat me over the head as if they are universal female experiences.

They are not.

Aside from the definitional component, it's also complete bullshit as well in a more general sense. UK clothes sizes are completely different to those used across most of the rest of the world. Most of the clothes I buy aren't even in numbered sizes or aren't in UK sizes if numbered, and the same goes for most of my friends who barely ever use high street chains and UK sizes in practice. It's been years since I've walked into a shop and bought something in a UK size and never in a UK size 8. I buy shoes in a UK size 8 regularly.

It's evident to anyone following along at home that you are playing this Mean Girls No True Scotsman Gotcha shit because it is the closest available weapon to hand, and the ability to attack a trans woman is more important to you than any ideological integrity.

You do this to me all the time - the goalposts snap to wherever you need them to be so that the answer can be the one that excludes, ridicules or otherwise abuses or marginalises trans people.

Everything I say or do will never be enough for you. If I argue back or make my case in a robust fashion, it's male pattern aggression or entitlement. If I don't, and play nice or talk about how hurtful this shit can be, it's manipulative or a hollow performance of stereotypical passivity. You are poised to interrogate and dissect every single aspect of my personhood, searching for the angle that fits your prejudices. You do this over, and over, and over again on thread after thread. You cannot seem to see how this behaviour comes across to anyone who isn't invested in your belief system.

What's particularly ironic is that this same overbearing hyper-focused scrutiny is almost identical to the strategic abuse employed by misogynistic men to interrogate and undermine women in technical fields. I deal with this kind of shit constantly elsewhere in very different contexts.

You must see that you're doing this. I refuse to believe you can't see it.

murasaki · 27/05/2025 23:07

I would like to know why the constellation of data points that you identify as female are.

As it sounds like dodgy astrology to me.

teawamutu · 27/05/2025 23:17

Igneococcus · 27/05/2025 22:32

I bought four packs last time because this is seriously one of the best recipes ever and both dp and ds love it too:
https://www.sainsburysmagazine.co.uk/recipes/mains/chicken-nduja-and-butter-bean-one-pot

Oh yum, thank you. I usually use it for this: https://www.eatyourbooks.com/library/recipes/2117621/lamb-ragu-with-green-olives

Or just a tablespoon full to fry eggs in for nduja eggs on toast

BernardBlacksMolluscs · 27/05/2025 23:23

You must see that you're doing this. I refuse to believe you can't see it.

there have been 2 or possibly 3 trans people on threads this afternoon making interesting points quite calmly. You were shitty to all of them. Other posters were not. by and large those trans people were met with courtesy I would say. You might want to ask yourself why

teawamutu · 27/05/2025 23:25

It's evident to anyone following along at home that you are playing this Mean Girls No True Scotsman Gotcha shit because it is the closest available weapon to hand, and the ability to attack a trans woman is more important to you than any ideological integrity.

No. @ButterflyHatched you won't get this, I know, but for the lurkers: woman is a term for those born female who survive to adulthood.

That's it, and that's all.

So no, nothing you do will ever be 'enough ' to classify you as a woman. Not because we're big ol' meanies who like to move goalposts, but because you are male. And that will never change.

suggestionsplease1 · 27/05/2025 23:28

Seethlaw · 27/05/2025 17:39

For random people: I present as a bearded, flat-chested woman and let them decide how they want to address me. I get about half-half, depending on whether they notice the beard or the general body shape first.

For people who need to know enough about me that it's relevant, I introduce myself as a transman.

"Why do you still claim that identity if that means, in your words, that you are living a lie, and honesty is so important to you?"

Because I also feel like I'm lying if I don't tell people I'm a man. My gender dysphoria has always revolved around two poles: how I see my body "inside my head", and a deep and tenacious feeling of lying if I present as a non-modified woman. So I'm stuck between two lies, and I deal with that situation as best I can - which means accepting said situation in the first place.

Gotta be honest Seethlaw, you would be absolutely hung out to dry for this on FWR were you not so obsequious to the GC dogma here.

potpourree · 27/05/2025 23:30

I just typed out a long and earnest post to Butters, but realised they'd just call me a fat Nazi, pretend I'd said words I didn't, and realised it's too late for any hope for genuine engagement.

Perhaps the persona does have some benefits, then, as you're saved from me trying to work out where the real Butters is coming from - you clearly don't want that!

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