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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Am I naive in thinking that in a couple of years, if not sooner, this will all be behind us? A few court cases, people clear about the law, women's rights protected again??

1000 replies

loveyouradvice · 26/05/2025 23:04

And yes the noisy TRA far fewer in number and sidelined as the sad fringe that are left as others move on.....

Or do others think it will pan out differently??

OP posts:
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17
murasaki · 27/05/2025 23:31

suggestionsplease1 · 27/05/2025 23:28

Gotta be honest Seethlaw, you would be absolutely hung out to dry for this on FWR were you not so obsequious to the GC dogma here.

Not true. Seethlaw has said on other threads that they don't require the validation from others that Butterfly clearly does, it's about how they feel themself and that misgendering etc isn't a big problem.

murasaki · 27/05/2025 23:34

Also Seethlaw has engaged in debate and posted some really interesting stuff re their perspective, and Butterfly has just scolded and over dramatised.

potpourree · 27/05/2025 23:37

Seethlaw answered questions honestly. It's as simple as that. They seemed to care about communicating their point of view in a way that we could understand, rather than being motivated by calling us names and thinking about how to deflect our questions.

BernardBlacksMolluscs · 27/05/2025 23:40

suggestionsplease1 · 27/05/2025 23:28

Gotta be honest Seethlaw, you would be absolutely hung out to dry for this on FWR were you not so obsequious to the GC dogma here.

I found that post very honest and very helpful to increase my understanding of gender dysphoria

suggestionsplease1 · 27/05/2025 23:42

murasaki · 27/05/2025 23:31

Not true. Seethlaw has said on other threads that they don't require the validation from others that Butterfly clearly does, it's about how they feel themself and that misgendering etc isn't a big problem.

Seethlaw has described their formation of identity and how they choose to present to others so I have to assume from that they are open to questions.

They have simultaneously castigated other trans people for living 1 lie whilst owning that they live between 2 lies themselves. But that's ok - they have reconciled themselves to being the living embodiment of living between 2 lies whilst thinking it is fair game to demonise people who are to, according to them, living 1 lie.

Yeah, that would normally open a poster up to a little bit of opprobrium on FWR 🙄

BernardBlacksMolluscs · 27/05/2025 23:45

I’m confused. Are we supposed to be being mean to trans people or nice to them?

changedusernameforthis1 · 27/05/2025 23:48

ButterflyHatched · 27/05/2025 20:50

Have you worn your True Trans badge in public yet?

Are these fourth spaces going to be added to existing NHS wards and public facilities, or will they be included in the new ones that will need to be built to accommodate them?

What do you mean by that? I haven't worn anything to point out that I'm trans - in public or at home. Unless you're being sarcastic.
It might surprise you but I don't spend every waking moment thinking about how trans I am and how I can make sure everyone I come across knows it.

I hope one day you realise it's not about you. Not the toilets, not the changing rooms, not the sports teams. None of it. It's about women, and their right to feeling safe and having their own spaces.

Your anger is going to ruin the rest of your life if you let it. And I get it, honestly. You've lived your life a certain way and suddenly you're being told you can't. But it's not a "because you're trans" thing. It's a "we need to protect women because they're rights that they fought for God knows how many years are genuinely at risk" thing.

I don't know if you have kids, but I have a daughter, and I'm scared for her future. I want her to have full access to single sex spaces whenever she needs them, and to not feel afraid to speak up for her rights.

There will always be transphobic people. But this? This isn't it.

Seethlaw · 27/05/2025 23:49

suggestionsplease1 · 27/05/2025 23:28

Gotta be honest Seethlaw, you would be absolutely hung out to dry for this on FWR were you not so obsequious to the GC dogma here.

I'm not obsequious to any dogma. As I told Butterfly: talk facts to me, not beliefs.

And if people don't like me, then so be it. That's literally how I live my life: I present myself as truthfully as possible, and let people choose how they want to react. It takes a whole lot of stress off my shoulders, and people react much better when they don't feel I'm trying to control them, so it's a win-win.

NoBinturongsHereMate · 27/05/2025 23:55

DeanElderberry · 27/05/2025 19:46

Not very quick on the cornering, but needing an effort to move her from her chosen spot.

You could probably spin her quite well, though.

As an aside, it was official Palace policy to state Victoria's height as an inch taller than she really was, because it wasn't thought 'queenly' to be so short - but they knew people would spot too large an exaggeration.

Helleofabore · 28/05/2025 00:10

ButterflyHatched · 27/05/2025 22:57

You're really hung up on this family thing aren't you?

You could have replaced all those words with a copy-paste boilerplate about Female Socialisation or one of the other articles of GC Canon and saved yourself a lot of time.

You trip yourself up here, because you are invoking a specific interpretation of the concept of Female Socialisation to describe a set of stereotyped behaviours that have nothing to do with any reasonable definition of femaleness or indeed womanhood. Woman <> Clothing.

A woman is not defined by existing in a social group that has size 8 clothes featured more prominently on their radar than shoe size 8. You're effectively saying 'checkmate, impostor - only real women talk about small UK clothes sizes and no real woman would ever think 8 was a reasonable size for shoes.'

In any other context, this talk of essential female experiences would be rightly shot down as precisely the kind of gendered guff that a belief system that describes itself as 'gender critical' would seek to reject.

You are using them in this context to beat me over the head as if they are universal female experiences.

They are not.

Aside from the definitional component, it's also complete bullshit as well in a more general sense. UK clothes sizes are completely different to those used across most of the rest of the world. Most of the clothes I buy aren't even in numbered sizes or aren't in UK sizes if numbered, and the same goes for most of my friends who barely ever use high street chains and UK sizes in practice. It's been years since I've walked into a shop and bought something in a UK size and never in a UK size 8. I buy shoes in a UK size 8 regularly.

It's evident to anyone following along at home that you are playing this Mean Girls No True Scotsman Gotcha shit because it is the closest available weapon to hand, and the ability to attack a trans woman is more important to you than any ideological integrity.

You do this to me all the time - the goalposts snap to wherever you need them to be so that the answer can be the one that excludes, ridicules or otherwise abuses or marginalises trans people.

Everything I say or do will never be enough for you. If I argue back or make my case in a robust fashion, it's male pattern aggression or entitlement. If I don't, and play nice or talk about how hurtful this shit can be, it's manipulative or a hollow performance of stereotypical passivity. You are poised to interrogate and dissect every single aspect of my personhood, searching for the angle that fits your prejudices. You do this over, and over, and over again on thread after thread. You cannot seem to see how this behaviour comes across to anyone who isn't invested in your belief system.

What's particularly ironic is that this same overbearing hyper-focused scrutiny is almost identical to the strategic abuse employed by misogynistic men to interrogate and undermine women in technical fields. I deal with this kind of shit constantly elsewhere in very different contexts.

You must see that you're doing this. I refuse to believe you can't see it.

'A woman is not defined by existing in a social group that has size 8 clothes featured more prominently on their radar than shoe size 8. You're effectively saying 'checkmate, impostor - only real women talk about small UK clothes sizes and no real woman would ever think 8 was a reasonable size for shoes.''

No. I am saying that female people are highly like to understand the sizes of female people. You obviously have not fucking idea. I don't discuss clothes in general, and have not had any interest in clothing apart from buying it for me. Yet even I knew that Red was discussing clothing size and not shoe size. But you continue to miss the point that you tried to use your 'shared' shoe size to leverage that you were just another 'woman' like Red. We all saw you do it.

It is nothing to do with 'gendered stuff'. It is to do with life skills and buying clothes and shoes for yourself throughout your life time. And I believe that buying clothes and shoes for oneself is generally considered a life skill that is shared by most female people who live in the UK throughout adulthood.

And yes, I am fully aware that clothing sizes and shoe sizes differ across the world. I, personally, rarely buy clothing in the UK at all. But even then I knew what the sizes were, because of those very rare experiences.

And no, you mention your family and your friends a great deal. Perhaps you don't notice this. But you mention them in defence of your own decisions. So, no. I am not 'hung up' on your family. But perhaps you don't realise how you use them.

Helleofabore · 28/05/2025 00:11

ButterflyHatched · 27/05/2025 22:57

You're really hung up on this family thing aren't you?

You could have replaced all those words with a copy-paste boilerplate about Female Socialisation or one of the other articles of GC Canon and saved yourself a lot of time.

You trip yourself up here, because you are invoking a specific interpretation of the concept of Female Socialisation to describe a set of stereotyped behaviours that have nothing to do with any reasonable definition of femaleness or indeed womanhood. Woman <> Clothing.

A woman is not defined by existing in a social group that has size 8 clothes featured more prominently on their radar than shoe size 8. You're effectively saying 'checkmate, impostor - only real women talk about small UK clothes sizes and no real woman would ever think 8 was a reasonable size for shoes.'

In any other context, this talk of essential female experiences would be rightly shot down as precisely the kind of gendered guff that a belief system that describes itself as 'gender critical' would seek to reject.

You are using them in this context to beat me over the head as if they are universal female experiences.

They are not.

Aside from the definitional component, it's also complete bullshit as well in a more general sense. UK clothes sizes are completely different to those used across most of the rest of the world. Most of the clothes I buy aren't even in numbered sizes or aren't in UK sizes if numbered, and the same goes for most of my friends who barely ever use high street chains and UK sizes in practice. It's been years since I've walked into a shop and bought something in a UK size and never in a UK size 8. I buy shoes in a UK size 8 regularly.

It's evident to anyone following along at home that you are playing this Mean Girls No True Scotsman Gotcha shit because it is the closest available weapon to hand, and the ability to attack a trans woman is more important to you than any ideological integrity.

You do this to me all the time - the goalposts snap to wherever you need them to be so that the answer can be the one that excludes, ridicules or otherwise abuses or marginalises trans people.

Everything I say or do will never be enough for you. If I argue back or make my case in a robust fashion, it's male pattern aggression or entitlement. If I don't, and play nice or talk about how hurtful this shit can be, it's manipulative or a hollow performance of stereotypical passivity. You are poised to interrogate and dissect every single aspect of my personhood, searching for the angle that fits your prejudices. You do this over, and over, and over again on thread after thread. You cannot seem to see how this behaviour comes across to anyone who isn't invested in your belief system.

What's particularly ironic is that this same overbearing hyper-focused scrutiny is almost identical to the strategic abuse employed by misogynistic men to interrogate and undermine women in technical fields. I deal with this kind of shit constantly elsewhere in very different contexts.

You must see that you're doing this. I refuse to believe you can't see it.

'It's evident to anyone following along at home that you are playing this Mean Girls No True Scotsman Gotcha shit because it is the closest available weapon to hand, and the ability to attack a trans woman is more important to you than any ideological integrity.'

This above, is just more of your hyperbole. No, I am not playing mean girl. No matter how much you want to frame it that way. Telling you that your insistence that you are a woman is flawed because it is only ever based on your male interpretation of how women interact with the world is not me being a mean girl. It is me explaining the very flaws in your repeated and fucking offensive attempts at redefining what the word 'woman' means to suit yourself.

'Everything I say or do will never be enough for you. If I argue back or make my case in a robust fashion, it's male pattern aggression or entitlement. If I don't, and play nice or talk about how hurtful this shit can be, it's manipulative or a hollow performance of stereotypical passivity. You are poised to interrogate and dissect every single aspect of my personhood, searching for the angle that fits your prejudices. You do this over, and over, and over again on thread after thread. You cannot seem to see how this behaviour comes across to anyone who isn't invested in your belief system.'

Nothing you can say or do will ever convince me that you are a woman, or anything but a male person with a particular philosophical belief that doesn't reflect material reality, or that you should have access to any female single sex provision, or that you should be in any 'elder' positions advising any young person, or that you understand the concept of consent.

I point out that you display misogynistic behaviour, because you often do. And you are clearly manipulative as anyone reading your posts can see. The wheedling in this above quoted paragraph is the very definition of manipulative. You want me to agree that you are a woman, no. Nothing you say or do will ever be enough to convince me that you are woman because it is materially impossible.

My belief system is one of established science and it is one that is shared by the vast majority of the world's population. It really seems to bother you that a group of women continue to reject your claims to be a woman simply because it is not possible for you, as a male person, to be a woman.

'What's particularly ironic is that this same overbearing hyper-focused scrutiny is almost identical to the strategic abuse employed by misogynistic men to interrogate and undermine women in technical fields. I deal with this kind of shit constantly elsewhere in very different contexts.'

Are women in technical fields attempting to convince everyone that their philosophical belief is materially real? Is that the comparison that you are now attempting to use? Because it really doesn't work. It is like you needed to present me as being abusive because I don't comply with your demands that I support your philosophical belief and that your philosophical belief is not directly causing harm to female people, so you grasped at this.

It is not controversial in any way to understand that humans come in two sexes which cannot be changed and that female people need to have their sex based rights prioritised over gender when sex matters. Even those female people who have a transgender identity need those sexed based rights to be prioritised when sex matters.

RedToothBrush · 28/05/2025 00:27

What's the difference between people I disagree but are civil

And people who lie, twist, manipulate, come up with ridiculous and contradictory stories, try to smear, emotionally blackmail and then accuse everyone of the most ridiculous things just because they disagree.

In terms of 'getting a hard time', the one that doesn't understand mutual respect and just bullshits is ALWAYS going to get treated differently.

Newsflash: this is down to personality and behaviour not because of someone's identity not even their beliefs.

The same applies to any thread on any subject on MN. Act like a dickhead, and you'll be roasted for it.

Stop going around pretending to be Ali G squawking 'is it cos I is trans?'.

NoBinturongsHereMate · 28/05/2025 00:35

BernardBlacksMolluscs · 27/05/2025 21:47

Also, what’s a ‘call out’, why are drunk people there groping people and why don’t HR deal with it? This script seems to have some holes…

You know who'd know? That police chap who used to spend 24 hours at a time on line, telling us how wrong we all were about the law and policing.

Not seen him around for a while.

LHR2JFK · 28/05/2025 05:14

ButterflyHatched · 27/05/2025 21:43

You've been in your career for decades. You've escaped the lean graduate years, clawed your way into earning some measure of respect in the workplace and though you still earn less than your male colleagues, you are at least accepted for who you are. You've built a social life both with out of work friends and colleagues, many of whom you have known for years by this point. They're a nice bunch - bit of a latent transphobia problem, but it never gets directed at you thankfully. The events of your childhood are a distant memory that rarely feels relevant. You made it. You're free. All that nightmarish awfulness is over, and you can put it all behind you.

You come into work one day and are told that from now on you must only use the male facilities.

You've never used them. Why would you? That would be ridiculous and nonsensical. Your colleagues would ask if you're having a laugh.

Wait, you...aren't? Seriously?

Wait, does that mean...you're one of them?

The temperature at work changes overnight. Your social life detonates. Everyone seems guarded around you. Tensions are suddenly running high. Nobody jokes anymore. Everyone is always whispering whenever you are just out of earshot. There is an unspoken 'but...' at the end of so many sentences. Everyone is waiting for you to say something. You have no choice - you have to eventually. It isn't how you'd have wanted to do this, but you might as well try and regain the initiative. You talk about your experiences; about what it's been like all these years.

You notice the little comments. The microagressions, now everpresently needling. You don't get invited to socials anymore - not in any glaring way, but over time it's starkly obvious.

You try and talk to people. It gets weird. You ask why you never get invited to socials anymore.

"Oh no, nobody has a problem. We just don't feel like it anymore."

"Oh I don't have a problem with any of that but it's just...you know. Different. Sorry."

One day, you're on a call-out. Some drunk dickhead tries to grope you. Your team would normally have your back, but nobody moves to stop him.

You try to bring it up later. Nobody wants to talk about it.

You start getting passed over for promotions. Eh it's fine, you have a job at least.

Of course you're the person picked for redundancy.

You apply for new position after new position.

You mysteriously never seem to get hired, despite being perfectly qualified and with plenty of experience. Weird - you were straight in the door for your last job a decade ago.

But that was before your life was detonated by an arbitrary court ruling funded by a multi-millionaire and an army of lawyers.

A court saying no to you is not detonating your life.

That which you call “latent transphobia” is those around you having to pretend something is true (that you are female) whilst knowing it is an untruth. Their dissonance is because you don’t actually pass and are nonetheless putting up with their own discomfort to keep you happy. (Maybe through goodwill, maybe through fear)

As has been said repeatedly quit with the hyperbole, I know you think the histrionics are the ultimate in performing femininity- but others just see an unreasonable tantrum

LadyBracknellsHandbagg · 28/05/2025 06:04

suggestionsplease1 · 27/05/2025 23:28

Gotta be honest Seethlaw, you would be absolutely hung out to dry for this on FWR were you not so obsequious to the GC dogma here.

Got to be honest, you and Butters would hang anyone out to dry who doesn’t affirm and agree with your dogma and ideology 100%.

Be kind my arse.

LadyBracknellsHandbagg · 28/05/2025 06:10

suggestionsplease1 · 27/05/2025 23:42

Seethlaw has described their formation of identity and how they choose to present to others so I have to assume from that they are open to questions.

They have simultaneously castigated other trans people for living 1 lie whilst owning that they live between 2 lies themselves. But that's ok - they have reconciled themselves to being the living embodiment of living between 2 lies whilst thinking it is fair game to demonise people who are to, according to them, living 1 lie.

Yeah, that would normally open a poster up to a little bit of opprobrium on FWR 🙄

Nah, you’re just having a pop because @Seethlaw like the women on here, won’t give you what you want ALL the time. You’re having a tantrum, and it’s all a bit boring tbh. And embarrassing.

SidewaysOtter · 28/05/2025 06:22

It’s interesting so see how shittily the TRAs like Butters and Suggestionsplease treat the other trans people on this thread who don’t toe the line. You’re not transing properly! You’re pandering to the GCs! They’d hate you if you weren’t telling them what they want to hear!

If anything exposes gender ideology as being rigid, performative and unkind, it’s those comments.

@Seethlaw I’ve found your posts interesting, KOKO.

PriOn1 · 28/05/2025 07:05

AYoungTransWoman · 27/05/2025 09:19

You'll notice so few lesbian and bisexual women dislike trans people there isn't even room to add the numbers:

Well the most obvious flaw with this is that they didn’t ask lesbians, they asked the minority group “cisgender lesbians”.

If you identify as “cisgender” of course you will be positive towards the trans movement. It’s self-selecting an already biased group.

So perhaps YouGov need to try again and use non-activist language. If the first question is “are you a cisgender lesbian?, you immediately cut out any lesbians who don’t identify that way.

Ballooncomesfirst · 28/05/2025 07:20

The discussion with Seethlaw and the two TW that joined the conversation on the other thread has demonstrated that compromise can be reached, once there is a commitment to respect women rights.

PriOn1 · 28/05/2025 07:28

suggestionsplease1 · 27/05/2025 11:20

Well sure in a way, believe me I'm not wasting any of my time trying to thwart any of that.

If people want to devote their precious time to policing groups rather than enjoying the groups, friendships and events that's up to them! Most of us find that attitude and disposition really unattractive, so I guess like gravitates to like in a way? People who place importance on that will find each other - the rest of us will happily stay away 😊

People who place importance on that will find each other - the rest of us will happily stay away

Ah well, THERE is the elephant in the room. You are allowed to have your grouping, you personally think it’s all “live and let live” and if it was, then perhaps it would be okay.

The reality is that lesbians who want to meet without male “lesbians” are relentlessly targeted and closed down. “The rest of [you]” are absolutely not staying away and you are lying to yourself when you claim that. You personally may not be doing it, but it is happening.

You are telling yourself it’s fine that it’s happening because it’s something you don’t feel a need for and you are excusing it as you regard those who do want it as “really unattractive”.

The time you discover a man is abusive is when you say no to him. Those women are saying no and you don’t see the abuser because women like you are enabling him.

Igneococcus · 28/05/2025 07:30

teawamutu · 27/05/2025 23:17

Oh yum, thank you. I usually use it for this: https://www.eatyourbooks.com/library/recipes/2117621/lamb-ragu-with-green-olives

Or just a tablespoon full to fry eggs in for nduja eggs on toast

Ooooh thanks, that will go on my list of recipes to try.
I have finally acquired a jar of peanut rayu and that is currently going on any eggy dishes.

Nameychangington · 28/05/2025 07:35

You cannot seem to see how this behaviour comes across to anyone who isn't invested in your belief system.

That's another bloody irony meter you owe me, Butters. And I haven't got the cash on me to get a new one, you know women's clothes don't have proper pockets

Annoyedone · 28/05/2025 07:45

Maybe it’s just me, but I get the feeling the people on this board are the closest thing to friends @ButterflyHatched gas. He seems to spend more time on here chatting to them than anything else.

SidewaysOtter · 28/05/2025 07:48

Nameychangington · 28/05/2025 07:35

You cannot seem to see how this behaviour comes across to anyone who isn't invested in your belief system.

That's another bloody irony meter you owe me, Butters. And I haven't got the cash on me to get a new one, you know women's clothes don't have proper pockets

Shall we see if we can get a job lot of irony meters from Temu or something? Cos we’re really going through them at the moment.

I’d check the middle of Aldi but ours was useless when I went in to look for a Supreme Court. All they had left was an Employment Tribunal which was missing its box.

suggestionsplease1 · 28/05/2025 07:51

Seethlaw · 27/05/2025 23:49

I'm not obsequious to any dogma. As I told Butterfly: talk facts to me, not beliefs.

And if people don't like me, then so be it. That's literally how I live my life: I present myself as truthfully as possible, and let people choose how they want to react. It takes a whole lot of stress off my shoulders, and people react much better when they don't feel I'm trying to control them, so it's a win-win.

So you posted "I have only made drastic cosmetic changes to my body in order to support my request that I be socially treated as a man"

But you also describe that as living a lie and that you are:

"So I'm stuck between two lies, and I deal with that situation as best I can - which means accepting said situation in the first place."

And then you say to ButterflyHatched:

"You're literally saying that you need multiple, extensive lies to tolerate yourself.

And I should want to be like you??"
-----

You demand internal consistency from others whilst absolving yourself from that requirement.

I'm not really a fan of people demanding standards from others that they say they are not meeting themselves.

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