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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Am I naive in thinking that in a couple of years, if not sooner, this will all be behind us? A few court cases, people clear about the law, women's rights protected again??

1000 replies

loveyouradvice · 26/05/2025 23:04

And yes the noisy TRA far fewer in number and sidelined as the sad fringe that are left as others move on.....

Or do others think it will pan out differently??

OP posts:
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17
ButterflyHatched · 27/05/2025 18:57

So on this thread we have established that the true mark of womanhood is always reading 'size 8' as a clothes size rather than a shoe size.

Doesn't matter if not a single adult woman in your entire family has felt the need to try to squeeze herself into a size 8 item of clothing, but there are several with size 8 feet. Definitely clothing.

Okiedokie, thanks for solving gender there, thread.

teawamutu · 27/05/2025 18:59

ThatCyanCat · 27/05/2025 18:44

You're quite right. This person isn't a transwoman or anything like that, probably not even a true TRA. He's a dude, likely a very young one, who wanted to show he's cleverer than women, used this issue to prove it, got totally served and now can't back down because he must be cleverer than the women. Oh so clever.

I dunno, the obsessive self-pity, absolute refusal to address reality, patronising attitude and overweening entitlement could well skew older.

Think of that ghastly twat who led the Portsmouth protest and got himself appointed CEO of an endometriosis charity. Or 'Jane' Fae.

Or even Himdia.

Greyskybluesky · 27/05/2025 19:00

ButterflyHatched · 27/05/2025 18:57

So on this thread we have established that the true mark of womanhood is always reading 'size 8' as a clothes size rather than a shoe size.

Doesn't matter if not a single adult woman in your entire family has felt the need to try to squeeze herself into a size 8 item of clothing, but there are several with size 8 feet. Definitely clothing.

Okiedokie, thanks for solving gender there, thread.

You read it wrong and you made yourself look daft.

That's all.

RedToothBrush · 27/05/2025 19:00

ButterflyHatched · 27/05/2025 18:57

So on this thread we have established that the true mark of womanhood is always reading 'size 8' as a clothes size rather than a shoe size.

Doesn't matter if not a single adult woman in your entire family has felt the need to try to squeeze herself into a size 8 item of clothing, but there are several with size 8 feet. Definitely clothing.

Okiedokie, thanks for solving gender there, thread.

You don't even get it.

Even now!

Oh my!

Helleofabore · 27/05/2025 19:01

I see now.

At least you are admitting that your experience of womanhood comes through the lived experience of your female family members. The ones so heavily invested in keeping you happy that they have let you believe things that may not be true and have let you think they consent for all women by telling you that you should use the female single sex spaces.

We learn a lot from these threads. But I doubt it is what you want us to learn.

murasaki · 27/05/2025 19:03

Helleofabore · 27/05/2025 19:01

I see now.

At least you are admitting that your experience of womanhood comes through the lived experience of your female family members. The ones so heavily invested in keeping you happy that they have let you believe things that may not be true and have let you think they consent for all women by telling you that you should use the female single sex spaces.

We learn a lot from these threads. But I doubt it is what you want us to learn.

Quite re your last paragraph.

It's a bit like when we were told to educate ourselves. And we did.

potpourree · 27/05/2025 19:04

ThatCyanCat · 27/05/2025 18:49

I feel sorry for young women, actually. Back in my day, when a man wanted to impress with his superior intellect, he created art, or gained a PhD, or solved a practical problem. Nowadays, we get stuff like this. So glad I've already reproduced. Sorry, Darwin, you were wrong.

Can I just clarify, for Butter's tally chart - are you trying to say that floundering and disingenuousness is generally unattractive, or are you calling to violently wipe all trans people out of existence through sinister manipulation of the gene pool? The two are so close it's a hard call.

WithSilverBells · 27/05/2025 19:04

Helleofabore · 27/05/2025 19:01

I see now.

At least you are admitting that your experience of womanhood comes through the lived experience of your female family members. The ones so heavily invested in keeping you happy that they have let you believe things that may not be true and have let you think they consent for all women by telling you that you should use the female single sex spaces.

We learn a lot from these threads. But I doubt it is what you want us to learn.

Indeed. Thanks for highlighting that

Ereshkigalangcleg · 27/05/2025 19:05

ButterflyHatched · 27/05/2025 18:57

So on this thread we have established that the true mark of womanhood is always reading 'size 8' as a clothes size rather than a shoe size.

Doesn't matter if not a single adult woman in your entire family has felt the need to try to squeeze herself into a size 8 item of clothing, but there are several with size 8 feet. Definitely clothing.

Okiedokie, thanks for solving gender there, thread.

It’s not your inability to sound remotely convincing that means you aren’t a woman, it’s the fact of your sex, Butters.

ButterflyHatched · 27/05/2025 19:05

WithSilverBells · 27/05/2025 19:04

Indeed. Thanks for highlighting that

Did you not have a family when growing up?

WithSilverBells · 27/05/2025 19:07

Of course, and there was all sorts of weird shit about them. Like every family

Ereshkigalangcleg · 27/05/2025 19:07

teawamutu · 27/05/2025 18:59

I dunno, the obsessive self-pity, absolute refusal to address reality, patronising attitude and overweening entitlement could well skew older.

Think of that ghastly twat who led the Portsmouth protest and got himself appointed CEO of an endometriosis charity. Or 'Jane' Fae.

Or even Himdia.

Yes I think a lot of TRA men are late middle aged, however they identify.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 27/05/2025 19:08

Or senior citizens.

Helleofabore · 27/05/2025 19:08

murasaki · 27/05/2025 19:03

Quite re your last paragraph.

It's a bit like when we were told to educate ourselves. And we did.

Indeed it is.

Totallymessed · 27/05/2025 19:13

DeanElderberry · 27/05/2025 18:57

I'm shoe size 41. Clothes size increasingly unpredictable even when buying from the same shop, but 16ish above the waist 12ish below. Used to be 5 6, probably less now.

👟👟

It's funny you should say that, it sounds exactly like one of @ButterflyHatched 's many female friends!

Totallymessed · 27/05/2025 19:14

murasaki · 27/05/2025 19:03

Quite re your last paragraph.

It's a bit like when we were told to educate ourselves. And we did.

Yes, telling people to educate themselves was a fatal mistake 😀We did!

Helleofabore · 27/05/2025 19:18

ButterflyHatched · 27/05/2025 19:05

Did you not have a family when growing up?

That is not even relevant to the point.

The point is you keep telling us stuff like

a constellation of statistically linked elements that together describe something almost intangible and linguistically elusive”

and

"I'm an adult human, and I recognise within myself a constellation of data points that I identify as female”.

But the reality is that have heavily used your family as a reference for womanhood. One who is invested in keeping you happy so may not be totally honest with you.

SerafinasGoose · 27/05/2025 19:20

potpourree · 27/05/2025 10:30

Remember that people are also arguing that "female" is in the mind.

I think the dishonesty is slowly coming to light.

I agree with a pp that a complete separation between sex and gender identity is where we might end up (and obviously, these need to be separate for trans people to exist, so why this is resisted by the second half of the gender argument seems odd to me).

If you have a gender identity, that's to be accepted, but it isn't your sex.
Just as your sex isn't your gender identity.

I wonder if the default assumption that there are gender identities that match the two sexes will eventually be questioned or even dismantled? That would require a long hard look at the constant background sexism that permeates everything, though so I'm not too optimistic.

I think the dishonesty is slowly coming to light.

I think you may very well be right. And the dishonesty emanating from the TRA position is evident in the wilful obfucscation - or in many cases I suspect woeful ignorance - as to what 'biological essentialism' actually means. I note that term has inevitably made an appearance on this thread.

Biological essentialism does not mean the recognition that humans are a dimorphic species, that we all have a sexed body, and that this sexed body falls into one of only two two available categories (including people with DSDs). That's physical biology. If your body doesn't function in the way it's designed to do: ie around the production of either small or large gametes - then you are atypical. I say this as a woman who has encountered infertility. It doesn't mean I'm not just as much a woman as the next female. My body is still designed around the production of large gametes - whether or not those, or my reproductive system, is functioning as it typically would. I'm a woman. I am not a third sex; people with DSDs are also not a third sex (or intersex).

Essentialism, on the other hand, means the theory that aside from the organic body there is some essence of what it means to be human - hence the name 'essentialism'. Philosophers have chewed the fat over this one since the year dot. For Descartes it fell into the reckoning of a body/mind dualism, in the enlightenment it varied around the theme of the human capacity to reason; for theologians it was the idea of an immortal soul that could live on after physical death. Humans have always railed against the idea that we are nothing but bodies: it seems somehow to be the essence of the obscene.

In gendered terms, essentialism was an idea that particular social qualities are innately female. I.e. women are 'natural' carers and nurturers, we are child-rearers, our job is to maintain the home, we get 'hysterical' if we try to enter the economic marketplace and deny our natural function as wives, carers and mothers. Anti suffragists - ie Almroth Wright, argued exactly these points against women having the vote. And this is what is meant by ideology - a preconceived idea that's drip-fed into us from such an early age that in our minds it becomes fixed and immovable fact. Note how often such ideas rely on assumptions of 'well, that's just common sense', or 'that's natural/unnatural'. It's when we try to unpick it that we realise these are in fact not sensible propositions, and it's not natural but socially constructed. Being a home maker, for eg., is not irrevocably tied to having a female, sexed body.

This was where the theory of social constructivism came in. It was the polar opposite of essentialism - and gender essentialism is the idea that there's a core or essence of how women or men think, feel, behave, and present in terms of their appearance, gestures, dress, and stereotypical behaviour. This is the idea encompassed by regressive gender ideology, and to which gender critical people are completely opposed.

It means 'essence'. It's a mechanism of social control. It's not about organic bodies. And any TRA who tells you your GC position is 'essentialist' is showing their ignorance, and telling you that they don't have the first clue what they're talking about.

ThatCyanCat · 27/05/2025 19:23

ButterflyHatched · 27/05/2025 18:57

So on this thread we have established that the true mark of womanhood is always reading 'size 8' as a clothes size rather than a shoe size.

Doesn't matter if not a single adult woman in your entire family has felt the need to try to squeeze herself into a size 8 item of clothing, but there are several with size 8 feet. Definitely clothing.

Okiedokie, thanks for solving gender there, thread.

You know what we haven't established? Your answers to my questions. Come on, engage the little grey cells.

If women don't need a space away from men to be safe, why do you?

If you are deathly afraid of meeting women who don't want men in their spaces, why do you use those spaces?

Are additional unisex spaces open to everyone an acceptable solution? If not, why not?

You wish to force society to reorganise around affirming you as a woman although you aren't one, and never to be challenged on this by anyone, in any way. How do you square this with the people who dissent being fascists?

ThatCyanCat · 27/05/2025 19:26

ButterflyHatched · 27/05/2025 19:05

Did you not have a family when growing up?

Family? Which of your parents is your mother? And how do you know?

(I mean, we all know you're not for real by this point, but still, do it in character anyway.)

Nameychangington · 27/05/2025 19:28

DeanElderberry · 27/05/2025 18:57

I'm shoe size 41. Clothes size increasingly unpredictable even when buying from the same shop, but 16ish above the waist 12ish below. Used to be 5 6, probably less now.

👟👟

What's that in real money?

<Narrows eyes. Suspects poster of being forrin>

BreatheAndFocus · 27/05/2025 19:28

ButterflyHatched · 27/05/2025 18:26

Ok I'll be sure to pass the message on to all my friends who have apparently failed the stereotype test.

Wait I thought we weren't about strict gendered stereotypes here? I just don't know what to think anymore!

I'm a woman if I have XX chromosomes unless I don't and grow up in a female body unless I don't and have a womb unless I don't and behave in stereotypically feminine ways about clothes unless I don't and have a particular hormonal profile unless I don't and where were the goalposts again today? I just want to keep all the other women in my life updated on the toilet prerequisites.

Why not just admit you made a mistake? I was genuine when I said I felt embarrassed on your behalf - ie I felt a bit sorry for you (really). Saying that women refer to their clothing size when they talk about their height and size isn’t a stereotype 🙄

Your attempts at distraction are sad. You know the definition of woman as well as I do.

RedToothBrush · 27/05/2025 19:29

Nameychangington · 27/05/2025 19:28

What's that in real money?

<Narrows eyes. Suspects poster of being forrin>

I'm a size 38. I think.
Or 37.

BreatheAndFocus · 27/05/2025 19:31

ButterflyHatched · 27/05/2025 18:57

So on this thread we have established that the true mark of womanhood is always reading 'size 8' as a clothes size rather than a shoe size.

Doesn't matter if not a single adult woman in your entire family has felt the need to try to squeeze herself into a size 8 item of clothing, but there are several with size 8 feet. Definitely clothing.

Okiedokie, thanks for solving gender there, thread.

Ah, it’s your family now, is it? I thought it was your fiery friend 😆

JazzyJelly · 27/05/2025 19:31

I can't help but think of the poor woman who's getting a text tonight saying 'Hey mate, just FYI I'm talking about your massive feet on Mumsnet' 😂

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