Am I naive in thinking that in a couple of years, if not sooner, this will all be behind us? A few court cases, people clear about the law, women's rights protected again??

[loveyouradvice]

And yes the noisy TRA far fewer in number and sidelined as the sad fringe that are left as others move on.....

Or do others think it will pan out differently??

Edit:

replying to Butters not Rare. Sorry.

No. STOP using the Holocaust.

The Nazis knew exactly what a woman is, and persecuted them according to racial / societal ideals. Yes, they forced eugenically ‘pleasing’ births on some and encouraged a traditionally gendered, warlike society. They also deliberately targeted young women as the first Jewish inmates in Auschwitz for reasons of racial ideology backed up by solid misogyny.

What they didn’t do was target women solely for being women, or trans people (ahistorical nonsense that this is) for being ‘trans. Heterosexual crossdressing men were given a pass under the Nazis. The main examples used all survived. Those that didn’t, were targeted as gay, or Jewish. Or, like Hirschfield, both. Hirschfield I might add who liked to ‘trans away the gay’ and numbered some leading Nazi surgeons in his peers who then went on to commit medical atrocities in the camps.

To put it another way, the Nazis killed plenty of bakers. Because they were Jewish bakers. What they didn’t do was target bakers. Much like they didn’t target cross dressers for being cross dressers.

Like it or not, all of this is evidenced history. NONE of it has anything to do with women telling you to stay out of our spaces. Your constant suggestion that the true definition of woman being defined in law is sending you to the ovens or the start of a genocide is not only a hideously offensive lie but on par with holocaust denial. You are minimising the absolute atrocities for pity points. Disgusting.

You know that young people grow up and change their views as they mature don’t you?

And SJ Baker is nearly 70 isn’t he?

@suggestionsplease1

"So when you see all the threads here hero worshiping Posie Parker / Kelly Jay Keen, who is advising everyone not to employ you or rent a room from them because you are trans, that doesn't worry you?"

Everyone is entitled to their wrong opinions, whether it's KJK herself or the people worshipping every word out of her mouth. I support people's right to have wrong opinions.

"And when you read here that you are mentally ill and spending your life deceiving and lying to others, that doesn't bother you?"

LOL no. I'm the first one saying there's something wrong with my head. I mean, how could there not be? I'm female but I somehow think I'm male? That's like a definition of mental illness. And yes, it's totally a form of lying and deceiving when I pass, or an imposition on others of cognitive dissonance when I don't pass; either way, I'm putting a burden on others to accommodate me, and I'm grateful when they accept to take it, and I understand when they don't.

"And when see the threads here linking to news articles where trans people are talking about leaving the country because they are frightened, and you see the posts here on FWR saying 'good riddance' and 'let me try to find my tiny violin' you don't feel any empathy for trans people like you?"

Trans people have it better in the UK than in many other countries. There's no GRA in my country, for example. Nor fully-funded gender-affirming surgeries. I think a lot of those who speak of leaving would be very surprised if they actually tried to live in one of those countries where things are supposedly better for trans people.

Oh yikes.

I'm sorry the trans community wasn't saintly enough for you. Drives me up the wall sometimes as well. Puritanical behaviour in any community is unpleasant and trans people aren't immune.

Intolerance of what, out of interest? You weren't expecting tolerance of trans-hostile views, I hope? Seems a bit self-defeating to openly welcome that kind of stuff without challenge, even if it comes from inside as well as outside.

I think it's actually funner if you think I take the time to run multiple sock puppet accounts on here, but that would be unfair on poor Christine.

Wow! I say this kindly but if you were one of my kids I’d be getting you permanently off the internet and into a good outdoorsy healthy job where you can look after animals (or garden or something) as your mental health is taking a turn for the worse.

If you genuinely feel ‘deathly afraid’ of women with opinions on the internet you need to make some serious changes in your life. Seriously.

Intolerance of my sadness at not being able to live an actual man's life. The example I gave was not being able to become a biological father, but there are others, starting with the most basic one: I'll never have a functioning penis, and yes, I miss that. But when I tried to express that sadness, just to see how others dealt with it, I was cut short and reprimanded for having transphobic thoughts. Well then, what's the point of a support group?

You're so right! I'll tell the fascists to stop telling me how they can't wait to put me in ovens. Which they do several times a day on busy days. They'll be sure to comply if I ask nicely.

What point are you even trying to make? And why are you ignoring my questions?

asking me to use the gents = telling me to get in a oven (several times a day)

seems legit

Fucking hell. This is a thread that has it all! I am just catching up.

I see that we have the usual hyperbole and fucking offensive comparisons to the holocaust. Then we have male people with transgender identities doubting a female person with a transgender identities trans status (gosh... whatever happened to 'acceptance without exception!' or is that only when it relates to you!).

Then we have non-trans lesbians and some weird narc claim about attractiveness. Plus we have debunked accusations about Neo-nazis, the far right and Kellie Jay Keen (debunked by an Australian judge no less, but still it keeps coming!)

Did I miss anything? I have been skimming and jumping on and off the thread while working. But it seems to be a fucking riot!

And all because the majority of the population agrees with the Supreme Court decision that male people above about 8 years old (or 10 yrs old) should stay the fuck out of female single sex spaces. Because they are men under the EA, despite all the desperate pleas that they are not.

I'm sorry - sounds like people within the community have been particularly blunt with you, rather than working to help you deal with what you are feeling.

You must, however, have seen how this kind of sentiment gets expressed over and over again in open social media spaces and only serves to harm the mental health of those who are exposed to it? Who benefits from it? If you let that kind of stuff spiral you just end up with 4chan levels of toxic self-loathing and crab-bucketing.

That isn't to say that you are inherently wrong to feel that way - we are limited by the technology and resources available to us and you are absolutely within your rights to be dissatisfied by them. I don't think any of us wants to pretend that living with gender incongruence is fun jolly butterflies and happiness (and if they do then they aren't a serious person I want to have anything to do with).

I would advise extreme caution over allowing yourself to become a pet for the GC movement - especially when asked to assist in dismantling your own rights. You must be able to see the current direction of travel?

Proof or withdraw, please. Because I don't believe that for one minute.

ONE piece of evidence.

The Institute of Sexology made its usual appearance @Helleofabore
Despite the arguments around it having been addressed and mostly debunked on previous threads.

Have you seen the state of most social media?

Are you honestly trying to claim this doesn't happen?

There will be parents of “trans” kids for a long time to come who will continue to double down because of what their kids have gone through with their support.
But, I think the tide of public opinion is turning.

Why are you ignoring my questions?

If women don't need a space away from men to be safe, why do you?

If you are deathly afraid of meeting women who don't want men in their spaces, why do you use those spaces?

Are additional unisex spaces open to everyone an acceptable solution? If not, why not?

Why do you think being asked to use the gents is equivalent to being put in a gas oven?

You wish to force society to reorganise around affirming you as a woman although you aren't one, and never to be challenged on this by anyone. How do you square this with other people being fascists?

If you cannot see how banging the anti-trans movement drum is directly contributing to a wider social climate that results in the latter then I beg you to talk to more trans people. Please.

Do you give the tiniest shit about how offensive it is to equate Auschwitz with men being asked to use the gents or a unisex space?

Jesus christ, please stop being obtuse or I will be forced to conclude it is deliberate.

It really is beyond the pale when people are 'no they didn't'ing you when you disclose that people regularly send you messages on social media saying they can't wait to put you in the ovens.

TRAs posting dishonest claims and bullying women directly contributes to me being more critical of gender.

So IF me being GC is a direct contribution to violence - which I would dispute - then TRAs being dishonest and bullying women is one of the causal links in the chain.

You won't take that on board, of course, or realise that respectful debate might actually change minds where being scared to defend your own claims doesn't. But worth pointing out that your logic either applies to both "sides" or not at all.

Being blunt implies being honest. There was no honesty in refusing to discuss how a trans man does not have and never will have an actual male body.

"You must, however, have seen how this kind of sentiment gets expressed over and over again in open social media spaces and only serves to harm the mental health of those who are exposed to it? Who benefits from it?"

No. What harms trans people is being lied to. What harms trans people is being encouraged to live a lie, to convince ourselves that we are not what we are, and that we are what we can never be. So who benefits from stating the hard facts? Trans people, who can make their decisions with a truly informed mind.

Let's be clear: you, Butterfly, will never be a biological mother, will never have a uterus and ovaries. I will never be a biological father, will never have a penis, testicles or a prostate. Those are facts, and only someone who faces them and deals with them can find mental healtth and peace.

Nobody's dismantling my rights, whether in the UK, or in my country, where I have less rights than in the UK, yet still more than enough to live a good life as a trans person. Whether here or there, there was never a right to use the opposite sex's single-sex facilities, so it can't be taken away.

Please.

Tell.

That.

To.

The.

Fascists.

Who.

Say.

That.

To.

Me.

Regularly.

On.

Social.

Media.

Thanks.

You do know that the SC judgement actually cements Seethlaws sex based rights?

What other rights are you claiming are being dismantled?