Am I naive in thinking that in a couple of years, if not sooner, this will all be behind us? A few court cases, people clear about the law, women's rights protected again??

[loveyouradvice]

And yes the noisy TRA far fewer in number and sidelined as the sad fringe that are left as others move on.....

Or do others think it will pan out differently??

Does it show that humans can change sex, or that men are no threat to women? If not, it's nothing to do with women's right to single sex spaces. But I will have a look.

I think there's a game of 'let's pretend' going on, surely nobody with a grain of common sense really believes that TWAW or that GC women want to ex-ter-min-aaate all transpeople, or that having to use a toilet that you'd rather not use is akin to genocide.
I mean, c'mon!

Some people love taking an extreme position and showing off their cleverness by defending the indefensible for as long as they can, by any means they can, often twisting meanings or picking up on slight errors or ambiguities to 'crush' their interlocutor.

I've seen it done. By men, in my experience, but that's just my experience.

It is impossible to reason against it, because it's not about rationality and facts and that kind of thing, it's a look-at-me-and-how-clever-I-am domination thing.

It's annoying when teenagers are going through that I-know-everything phase; when people continue it into adulthood, it's a bit sad as well as irritating.

I'm convinced at least one of these regulars is a GC or a right-wing dad plant doing a bit.

Why else would they so enthusiastically want to prove us right?

Couldn't agree more. I think it's easy to underestimate how much these views are entrenched. And, especially, in our schools. And just look across the Atlantic: how far away does the Democrat/left/liberal consensus in the US look from abandoning genderwoo and seeing the errors of its ways? A million miles away. A Pritzker could be the next US president.

I think Butters is one of those terfy types who think being a woman means being female.

It's nigh on impossible to get out what they actually think because they shy away whenever you and them to hold their views up to the light and just resort to the screensaver of nazi, bigot, homophobe, literal killing, etc etc

It's been very illuminating seeing what people come up with in order to avoid a direct question.

Transactivism might be cool in the universities, but it's not in the secondary schools (my son eye-rolled when I asked him about it). When your teacher says "they are non-binary...and here’s your homework", it's background cringe, not oppression.

Which should make people like ButterflyHatched happy - it's full acceptance! Being boring means you have won!

Transpeople have full rights. What they don't have is the right to other people's perception, privacy and comfort.

Glad to hear she's lovely in person.

I must confess, I would be deathly afraid of meeting in person any of the no-doubt otherwise lovely people on this board who have repeatedly insulted, interrogated and misgendered me here as a matter of course for years. These posters have called my desperate pleas to spare trans kids from further harm, to stop banning healthcare and driving trans people from public life 'childish tantrums' more times than I can count; they have shouted me down and dogpiled me on thread after thread after thread with astonishingly hostility and vicious circular arguments attacking my mental health, physical health, choice of attire, dating practices, familial relationships and personal integrity.

Perhaps it's unreasonable to be afraid of people who seem to spend a terrifying amount of their time poring over every aspect of your life in minute detail looking for ways to undermine and abuse you and further reduce your quality of life. Perhaps I should just get over it and pretend it doesn't happen, eh?

Whenever I bite back or challenge this behaviour, we go through a cycle of performative outrage like the one happening on this thread right now.

I don't need to put that on a t-shirt. It's all available through the search function for anyone who wishes to see for themselves.

@Christinapple we are seeing school and University age young sportswomen rebelling against the unfairness of boys in girls sport.

The majority of publicly prominent trans activists are older people. There was a picture recently of RMW, Stephen Whittle and India W. They range in age from 59-70. The ever delightful Sarah Jane Baker is 55. I doubt any of them are massively relevant to the younger generation.

I really don’t think the TRA’s have captured the youth in the way you think.

There was a reality is that you cannot change sex and the women will not tolerate our rights being compromised because of male feelings

Trans people have right to be protected from discrimination but recognising that biology sometimes really matters is fact not discrimination.

Communist homophobia and transphobia has a long, long history.

Stalin infamously persecuted LGBT people in the USSR, walking back an initial policy of tolerance.

He also invaded Poland the same time the Nazis did.

This is such a great post.

There are some different sub groups of people with transgender identities who are quite upfront with choosing to be transgender because of various aspects of the philosophical belief.

I understand that you believe that all people who identify as transgender may believe that they are in the 'wrong body' (when there is no possible way for this to be so), but I think you are not seeing all the groups within the trans 'umbrella'.

Says the person who says we must not say what we see with our own eyes.

Be careful Christine with your nonsense slurs regarding Kellie Jay Keen :
.

Former Liberal leader John Pesutto has launched a GoFundMe campaign just hours after being ordered to pay first-term MP Moira Deeming $2.3million in legal costs after falsely asserting that she was associated with Neo Nazis ( following LWS event which police inexplicably allowed black shirted men to invade & perform a Nazi salute ) .
The LWS stewards can be clearly seen on video footage demanding the police remove them . 🧐

And the left has a long, and ongoing, history of misogyny! Like right now, while it's driving women away by telling them they're bigoted Nazis if they don't accept their erasure as a sex class through the ridiculous notion that men can be women and act delighted to have knobs out in their changing rooms.

You don't have to convince me not to be a Communist. It still remains a fact that it's not "far right" to acknowledge that men can't be women. Who the hell needs the Communists to tell them that?

they have shouted me down and dogpiled me on thread after thread after thread

This means that people have posted on a thread, am I correct?

It really isn't a "well established point" because it is only asserted by people who haven't the faintest idea what "gender critical" means, and only believed by credulous people that don't check the sources of such unfounded assertions.

Sexist and homophobic transphobes do exist, they are not gender critical.

Gender critical people are critical of the constraints and expectations of gender stereotypes, are happy for trans people to exist and thrive but maintain their own right to understand that sex and gender are different things. Gender Critical feminists uphold everyone's right to live free of sexist stereotypes.

Nazi ideology holds (among other things) that sexist stereotypes are correct and true and that everyone must fulfil the expectations of the stereotypes for their birth-sex.

These two positions are incompatible. It's almost as if frameworks of belief and ethics isn't a binary decision between 2 possible options. It's not even a linear spectrum.

The search function is right there if you wish to see for yourself.

Ok, but I'm asking what you meant when you said that.

Did you mean that people had added posts to the threads you are on, or did you mean something else?

If you're 'deathly afraid' of women who want to prevent the sterilisation of children and preserve single sex spaces, @ButterflyHatched, why engage at all?

I'd be quite uncomfortable meeting a man who refuses to accept women's 'no' in person, but that's somewhat different.

I'm so pleased to see that the post likening 'trans people's struggles' to the holocaust has been deleted by MNHQ as breaking talk guidelines. It was distasteful, and as usual, overly emotive, disrespectful and wrong. Usually, I'm a fan of letting such rubbish stand, purely to show the batshittery, but I am heartily sick of it now and it was called out by plenty of other posters before I reported it.

Also, just for clarity, here's a definition of a lesbian from Karon Monaghan KC. (source: LGB Alliance)

All you ever post about is you, yourself, your life story and how your feelings trump everything. Of course it's going to feel personal when posters respond.

It’s almost certainly that beacon of reality Chris.😂😂

We've just had the Cass Review - this reflected how many parents of transitioning kids and the kids themselves were expressing homophobic views. The black humor joke at the Tavistock became that they were going to 'trans all the gay kids'.

We now have various Pride march (I think I've seen a couple now) saying that they won't allow LGB groups or individuals to attend as they are hateful. Yes some pride groups are banning (checks notes) gay people.

And the SC ruling made it explicitly clear that they had to rule that sex was biological sex and the attempt to marginalised and erase lesbians was driven by homophobic beliefs. That ruling was the result of lesbians taking legal action.

Indeed how many lesbian women have been involved with all these groundbreaking court cases to enforce and uphold their legal rights? Can we go through the list?

Trans ideology has long used the Trojan horse of pretending to be gay friendly whilst simultaneously working to dismantle and marginalised gay and lesbians people.

So I'm not sure that 'Liberal minded centrists' who support Transactivism really have much of the moral high ground to shout at anyone here.

Indeed, shock horror, there are actual real homosexuals on MN. I don't think they need homophobia transplained to them.

It means they've quoted the nonsense and explained why it's nonsense in clear terms that most reasonable people understand.

The issue is people who aren't reasonable don't like this.

@loveyouradvice

I don't think this will be behind us quickly, or even in our lifetime (I am quite old, though). Because:

There's money in it.

It mainly disadvantages women and children.

The mechanisms for putting things right are clunky. For instance, we know that failure to provide certain sex-segregated entities is illegal sex-discrimination, but this can still only be enforced via a civil action.

Most of all though, this is a metaphysical belief system with powerful meme-spreading qualities. (The last time this happened was millennia ago, yet that belief system is still hanging around like a bad smell, dictating our Sunday trading laws and who can sit in the Lords.)

Transgenderism is resilient. It appeals to people's love of arcane knowledge with its sci-fi vibes, and gives them a warm glow of virtue. It's captured many major institutions and is prepared to fight dirty. It proselytises to the vulnerable, and brainwashes the young.

Our only hope is to reduce it to the status of any other religion in a secular state, rather than what it is at the moment - the state religion of a theocratic state.