just checking - since the SC there is no such thing as misgendering on Mumsnet? Or is there??

[loveyouradvice]

Just checking we can refer to TIM as he now? I think so... The deeply admirable Helen Joyce does and I share her rationale...

Goes all the way back to the sublime Pronouns are rohypnol from a much loved mums netter...

The answer seems to be, it depends.

As far as I can see, we are allowed to mention someone’s sex if it’s relevant to an objection you are making.

So if you are complaining about a man who claims he is a woman bringing a court case to say he must be allowed to play in the women’s section of a sports team or league, you are allowed to mention his sex.

If his lawyer is also a man who claims he is a woman who is watching the board and sees a post where his sex is not directly relevant to the role he is in, then your post is likely to be removed, presumably as such lawyers put pressure on Mumsnet, on principle in order to stop women talking in ways he doesn’t like.

You can mention his sex though, as long as you are making a point about how his sex affects something.

I should imagine Mumsnet is pretty sick of this situation, but still not certain enough of the law to want to become embroiled with such a case. There are certainly some very litigious male, woman identifying lawyers around.

So in short, we can mostly correctly sex people these days, but sometimes posts and occasionally whole threads are removed. Not sure whether we’re still kicked off after three strikes or not. I’m not aware of any recent bootings.

As an undiagnosed neurospicy I am much happier being able to use correct sex pronouns. I think the doublethink involved in lying about what sex a person is, imposes an unfair mental burden

it so does... 100 pc agree @BezMills

and thanks for reflections @PriOn1 - I hadn't realised that and dont blame Mumsnet for being careful...though looking forward to when they don't have to be! which I think will be soon, after another case or two...

I have to admit, I've no idea what the rules are now. I know the postit of guidelines at the top of the board disappeared a while ago but I never saw MNHQ announce that they'd been withdrawn. There are fewer deletions for sure but I'm not sure whether that's because HQ are more relaxed or whether, with certain exceptions, there are just fewer posts being reported. Consequently I'm as careful now as I was back in the day when we had morning roll calls to see who was left.

gosh those morning roll calls... that takes me back....

I am less cautious now.

I call men men and no longer use conciliatory pronouns.

Though I will avoid all pronouns and references to what sex someone is when in the presence of the damaged young, including relatives who I love... They are one of the groups who I feel we have let down (and that is the bigger "we", us as a society, despite so many on here fighting for it not to happen).

When I say ‘HE’ I’m talking about sex. I don’t give a fuck what ‘gender’ someone thinks they are, so I haven’t misgendered anyone, I’ve simply referred to their sex.

I call my cat ‘he’ - he is a male sexed cat, I haven’t asked his gender identity.

After his performance at tea tonight I think my DBoyCat currently identifies as M&S Vignola Prosciutto Cotto (don’t worry Litter Tray people I did save some for his sister).

So so so agree @orangegato ....

@mumsnet What ARE the rules now???

Its hard to say how the Supreme Court ruling let alone the Interim Guidelines would apply to an online forum.

The Supreme Court ruling was only in relation to how the EA can and should be used.

Does the EA apply to any part of the mumsnet only empire?

Are they advertising a job, installing toilets, or wanting to provide a women (biological) only service?

Presumably though if GC is seen as a "Belief worthy of respect in a democratic society" and we are not expected to accept there belief as our own(eg that TWAW), in the same way as I don't use other's religion, surely I don't use theirs? eg I don't refer to men as She??

Agree - but you did OP about the SC ruling!

But agree that as GC views are "worthy of respect" and employers told they have the same value as trans ones, would have thought that would have had more impact on the MNHQ?

I agree @IwantToRetire .... I think the SC has just given more people more courage - including me! If that makes sense... ie not that it wasn't/I knew it wasn't before but now I have the courage to speak out to more people, and to speak differently. I imagine SC has given Mumsnet more courage too

Hopefully - but IMO it has always been a bit opaque and maybe as much to do with who is monitoring FWR posts at the time!

At a legal level, nothing has changed for mumsnet - it is mixed sex anyway, open to all trans or otherwise…

however what the judgement has done is to confirm beyond any doubt / challenge or debate the core argument that underpins the whole GC movement - that there are two sexes (male and female), that it is your birth sex and immutable.

that has transformed the whole debate by pulling back the curtain and letting the sunlight in… adults are back in the room…

this means that it is publicly and culturally acceptable to be GC, to not mis-use pronouns, to refer to people accurately as their natal sex etc… which changes the balance of debate, and should logically change how mumsnet moderates threads

Biological men should be addressed as men.
Biological women should be addressed as women. Men cannot have periods and women cannot own a penis, etc. There is a potential problem that may arise when addressing convincing trans people. Besides this potential pitfall it is black and white. Common sense denotes so. The subject isn’t worth too many column inches.

Anyone know how I get an answer out of Mumsnet...

posted this early in the thread and reported myself at the same time...

** What ARE the rules now???

@mumsnet

You can post in Site Stuff, I think.

We don’t have compelled speech laws in this country. An individual may express a preference for the pronoun by which they wish to be known. I don’t have to use their words, & I don’t, I refer to men & women by the correct sex pronoun.

@MNHQ

Thanks @WhoAreYouTalkingTo Much appreciated ... lets see if they respond

Holy shit!
So his sex isn’t his sex for all purposes, then?
The knots we’re expected to tie ourselves into because some people can’t face reality.

The SC ruling was limited in scope, I’m struggling to see the relevance to Mumsnet, beyond how they operate any single sex provision they may provide for staff or visitors.

I was told @MNHQ didn't work.

If it doesn't you could try by "report"ing your thread using the option at the bottom of your OP.

Though a thread on site stuff might be interesting as I suspect they are as likely to listen to those who have a different view point to you.

That's why FWR got sent to the naughty step because we weren't "nice".

Reporting your post as OP has done should get through to Mumsnet staff…

It is difficult running a big forum and more so one which is ostensibly female when it comes to issues like this - it will be a target as will its income through advertising…

in theory that shouldn’t matter - what is done should be what is right but that won’t stop malicious attacks…

in theory there is no such thing as misgendering… along with so much of the TRA guidebook on ‘discussion’ their arguments rely on playing with words to suit their perspective…

• the law is clear - two sexes and you can’t change.
• Pronouns refer to your sex.
• gender is a societal construct - the stereotype of the moment - and you can’t change gender (a man portraying as the current society stereotype of a woman is simply a man expanding the society’s understanding of what a male gender looks like)

so there should be clarity that a pronoun will always relate to your sex and as gender also relates to your sex - ergo no misgendering

hopefully a part of the more recent trend will be a return to this open and honest truth across the wider context and it will become a non thing

of course as above that doesn’t make it easy for Mumsnet - on the one hand a TRA person will probably still complain and may target them, on the other hand a GC member who is banned could potentially find a reason to sue Mumsnet for doing so - difficult times!

Thanks for your questions. It’s completely understandable that you want some clarity and since the recent ruling we have been carefully reviewing our moderation approach in light of it. To be clear, our moderation decisions are not based solely on quoting legal rulings as we are obviously not a court of law! While we take this into account, ultimately it is about keeping the site welcoming and fair for everyone regardless of their views.

Our core principles remain unchanged. We stand with the vulnerable, including women, trans people, and anyone affected by systemic inequality or marginalisation. We support open discussion and have long welcomed a range of views, whether gender-critical or trans-inclusive, as long as they follow the Talk guidelines. We welcome reasoned debate and expect all users to engage with respect, particularly toward those personally affected. Posts that deliberately use names or pronouns to provoke, harass, or target others on a thread will be removed.

We’ll also no longer use a rigid three strikes system. Occasional deletions will not automatically lead to sanctions but repeated breaches may affect your account as they do across the rest of Talk.

Our aim remains to strike a balance between protecting space for genuine debate and ensuring all posters, whatever their views, can take part in good faith.

Thanks
MNHQ