The words that have been pulled over your eyes

[FlirtsWithRhinos]

I initially wrote this as a reply to a thread in relationships, but rather than derail the thread I decided to post it in FWR as a thread in its own right about a common accusation made against gender critical feminists.

It is a response to the claim that the only people who object to the word "cis" are people who deny the existence of trans women, and that such people are transphobes.

"Transphobe", like "trans woman" and indeed "cis woman", are just the words trans activists use to hide what is really going on.

These words exist to hide one simple truth: Trans women are not, in any objective, real way, in any way outside their own heads, in any way that is real to anyone else, any closer to being a woman than any other man is.

"Trans women" in reality are just men who for some reason feel compelled (or sometimes just really want ) to adopt a cross-sex persona playing out whatever their idea of what a woman is.

The words exist to make it sound like a reasonable thing when such men demand that their wives, children, friends and family, colleagues, officials, all of society pretend they are women, let them enter private spaces for women, let them touch or counsel women in roles reserved for women, let them take prizes for women, let them speak for women.

Because we'd never accept that as ok from men. But it's ok for trans women, and if it's not ok that's transphobia.

And we'd never say women in general are more privileged and powerful than men, but call the men trans women and the women cis women and suddenly everyone nods along. And if they don't it's transphobia.

But I don't believe the thing that makes men and women different is our minds. And without that belief, the whole thing falls apart.

So you don't believe her, then?

FWIW, I agree with you @ButterflyHatched. This is the wrong forum for this discussion however.

You know very different trans men to me.

I try to avoid wasting time with people who are complicit in their own eradication from society.

So tell me this. If there is no conflict, why are women having to fight for their single sex spaces while trans identified men think they have rights to them?

Feminists hold pro-women, in the original sex based meaning, views.

Feminists are "anti-trans" only to the degree that accomodatong trans people's demands for cross sex privilege is detrimental to women (osbm). Where trans people's live do not have a detrimental effect on women (osbm) Feminists are neutral, indeed supportive of people who want to live outside traditional gender constructs.

It is true that many women who identify as Feminists have only focused on that second, positive view of trans people and not thought through to the politucal and real world end state of ##bekind, but every day,.as the entitlement of trans women in particular grows more blatant and the real world repercussions to women (obsm) become clearer, more of those women come to realise the truth that trans women are no closer to being women than any other man is.

Cor, hasn’t it just?

In many ways, people just being so massively fucking stupid is the thing that makes me angriest about all this.

Like I said before, narcissists gonna narcissist, but people thinking that playing along with pretending others have changed sex makes them all right on and progressive is such a depressing display of human stupidity

Oh look. Here's a great article you should read

particularly this bit

Finally, it dawned on me that some members of the transgender-rights movement did not seem to understand that women have human rights too.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2025/05/27/i-lost-friends-when-i-changed-my-mind-on-trans-rights/

About as much as I believe it’s possible for a person to change sex and that a man can magically become a woman if he puts a dress on.

Pfft. Respecting other people's right to live their own quiet lives is not eradicating oneself from society. That's not even in the same ball park.

The hyperbole and drama is off the charts 🫠

You are still trying to present a 'women vs trans' conflict. Most feminists don't hold virulently anti-trans views

This is the Good Women Don't Say No To Men line. Heard it. All my frigging life, got the t shirt.

No one here is anti trans, they are actively anti men literally pissing all over their rights, spaces and needs while those men argue that women don't have those needs, those needs don't matter any way, and no one else agrees with them, and nice women enable men and shut up.

If you jump up and down on people's feet, they will tell you to stop. They will not care if your friends say it's ok, or if most people don't mind. And if you continue to do it saying your existence is threatened if you don't, they are likely to start telling you some home truths that you won't like.

You have the choice at any moment to get the hell off their feet.

Thread after thread. My god. Always the resorting to hyperbole and misrepresentation and never a calm and reasoned engagement with the arguments. I despair.

Oh... you don't like the truth? That you have no comprehension of how a female person actually views and interacts with the world, yet female people, living that very experience do have at least some degree of expertise in know how a female person interacts with the world?

I am not going to tell you that you don't have some expertise on what living and interacting as a person with a transgender identity experiences. Why the fuck do you think you can declare that I or any other female person lacks the knowledge about how female people interact.

You obviously didn't even bother thinking though what you though was a great put down. But it just showed you to be patronising one.

It is quite enlightening today theotherraven, and the linguistic fuckwittery is ever present. However, there are plenty of new eyes on these threads and they are getting the demonstration that so many of us have experienced. After so many seeing Dr Upton's testimony, and then seeing the reactions to the Supreme Court judgement, today will be a beacon.

Anyone who doesn't believe we need a word for female people or that female people should have the right to single sex provision where appropriate is not a feminist.

HTH.

We fully understand that you only surround yourself with people who tell you what you want to hear and you cannot understand how female people actually think and interact with society and the world around them.

So, I don't doubt that you fail to understand how female people with transgender identities think. They are, after all, female people which you are not and never will be.

'eradication from society' - Butterfly here is talking about males being disallowed from using services and spaces allocated to women.

Any male is still free to use male spaces, and/or gender neutral spaces. But this isn't enough, apparently. Why aren't gender neutral spaces enough for you, Butterfly?

I think what may have happened is that people stopped listening to the 'I have been banned from living the life I demand' message and that the hyperbole has now again reached that offensive height that we saw not so long ago. I see the hugely offensive comparisons with the holocaust is back on FWR again today.

All because women politely and bluntly said 'no'. And the Supreme Court clarified that no male person should have been accessing female single sex provisions under the EA.

It really has reached a crescendo now.

Asking for a friend. Does using language such as non trans woman, cisgender woman, cis woman also count as obfuscatory label laundering? Or is it only obfuscatory label laundering when women speak about scientific and biological truths and use the words that have defined the human binary condition since our little green world tossed an evolutionary coin and -along with most plant species - the mammalian, avian, amphibian, reptilian, fish and insect species decided to go down the male and female takes two to tango option?

Maaaaaate....
There IS a* *'women vs trans' conflict. But you know this. Women have talked to you about sports, and safeguarding, and privacy, until we are blue in the face.

I'm not 'anti-trans'. I have hosted a TW in my own bloody house. I just don't want TW winning in women's sports, opening the metaphorical door to breaches of safeguarding, and hanging around in the ladies.

No apologies for being the sort of feminist who puts women first.

Did you make sure to wipe things down afterwards and remove the plastic sheeting to prevent contamination?

Seriously. Very few people in this country in 2025 have never been in the same house as a trans person. You say it like it's a heroic ordeal worthy of a medal. I've hosted people with 'gender critical' views in my house before. It's almost inescapable sadly.

Is that a yes, you don't believe her, then?

It was Jolyon who made the claim. Has his wife also made that claim publically?

I too await to have the details published by his wife. There is something that doesn't fit together with his account. I hope that she is ok.

She hasn't said anything. It's her husband we don't believe.