The words that have been pulled over your eyes

[FlirtsWithRhinos]

I initially wrote this as a reply to a thread in relationships, but rather than derail the thread I decided to post it in FWR as a thread in its own right about a common accusation made against gender critical feminists.

It is a response to the claim that the only people who object to the word "cis" are people who deny the existence of trans women, and that such people are transphobes.

"Transphobe", like "trans woman" and indeed "cis woman", are just the words trans activists use to hide what is really going on.

These words exist to hide one simple truth: Trans women are not, in any objective, real way, in any way outside their own heads, in any way that is real to anyone else, any closer to being a woman than any other man is.

"Trans women" in reality are just men who for some reason feel compelled (or sometimes just really want ) to adopt a cross-sex persona playing out whatever their idea of what a woman is.

The words exist to make it sound like a reasonable thing when such men demand that their wives, children, friends and family, colleagues, officials, all of society pretend they are women, let them enter private spaces for women, let them touch or counsel women in roles reserved for women, let them take prizes for women, let them speak for women.

Because we'd never accept that as ok from men. But it's ok for trans women, and if it's not ok that's transphobia.

And we'd never say women in general are more privileged and powerful than men, but call the men trans women and the women cis women and suddenly everyone nods along. And if they don't it's transphobia.

But I don't believe the thing that makes men and women different is our minds. And without that belief, the whole thing falls apart.

Absolutely love this ⬆️

Can the transwomen explain what is so dangerous about using the men's facilities. Is it because you fear for being physically attacked by fellow men? Would it be wrong to say 'men just want to pee and 99.9% would be no threat to you'. Also being biologically male yourself wouldn't you being a physical match for any potential attack. Is there some other reason why you are against using the men's toilets? Do you really expect everybody else to treat you as a biological woman?

As women we were told over and over when we campaigned for single sex spaces that our fears were exaggerated and we shouldn't tar all TW with the same brush when we gave real examples of assaults committed by males in women's spaces.We were told to ignore our instincts and keep quiet if we came across a potential threat to our safety. Can you understand how that made women feel?

If you feel there’s nothing here for you then why ‘torture’ yourself by coming here?

it's for martyr points and backslapping on Twitter.

Why would I ?

Her husband isn’t really a very reliable source.

I highly doubt that she has ever been bothered by other women ‘accusing’ her of being a man. Women would be very understanding and sympathetic to a woman that had need to undergo such devastating surgery. Thousands of women have had mastectomies and it’s really unforgivable for JM to use his wife’s surgery in such a risible way.

In fact it only proves it’s men that believe Women are somehow less womanly if they’ve had their breasts removed.

btw… Women are far more accepting of other women that choose to live their lives as men, especially because women have continually and historically been subjected to abuse both physically and mentally by men it’s no surprise they want to escape it by any means possible.

What shines the beacon even brighter on male entitlement where male people will still resort to using female single sex toilets rather than use the one that corresponds with their sex, is that female people with transgender identities who feel their deliberate choices in taking hormones that gave them male body cues that might distress some other women find alternative solutions all the time. They actually make the effort and plan their days.

They tell us this. They don’t complain that society wishes they didn’t exist, they don’t call people deranged for wanting single sex spaces and they don’t lazily use female toilets because they couldn’t find another solution. They actively accept their past choices have meant they have to find equitable solutions and they just do it.

The male entitlement of refusing to do the same and to just continue to use the female single sex toilet when convenient, when it suits them, and to protest being excluded is stark in comparison. But this behaviour is repeated over and over.

And then those very same male people wonder why other people talk about male entitlement and never understanding female behaviour patterns beyond the superficial ones they have adopted.

They love the martyrdom don’t they? The narcissism on display is something to behold, they’re like giant toddlers having a tantrum 😂

It's pathetic. Grown men saying they've being killed and annihilated because they have to use the gents and can't play on women's sports teams.

It's bloody risible they claim to be women. They wouldn't stand a chance in hell of coping with womanhood.

Lolyon is telling porkie pies anyway.

Trans women look like men with breasts, not women without breasts.

And some women are just naturally flat as a pancake anyway.

I can't imagine even noticing another woman's breasts or lack of in a public toilet situation.

And even if I did meet a woman in a single sex space and notice that she had no breasts, I wouldn't think anything of it.

Lolyon probably thinks this story is convincing because when he meets a woman his first instinct is to ogle her breasts and he thinks other people including women all do the same thing. Only a man could think this.

I've been thinking about this some more and I've come to the conclusion that people like @ButterflyHatched don't actually believe there is any such thing as a womanny identity that we all share.

I think it is simpler than that.

They know that they are not biologically female, like women are.

They know that there is nothing women have in common with each other beyond being biologically female.

They know that they have nothing in common with women as a group.

They just don't care.

"I am a woman because that is how I identify" doesn't mean, "I am a woman because women have X, Y and Z in common and I fit those criteria." It means, "I want to use women's spaces and believe that I am entitled to do so and I don't really care what women think about that because I am the main character in this story and they are the chorus."

It's all in the pronouns.

People like @ButterflyHatched may claim that their pronouns are "she/her" but the pronouns they use 95% of the time are "I/me/my".

And the odd fawning comment about how mean we are which, almost without fail get quoted because they validate the persecution complex. All whilst the difficult questions get ignored because they don't help sustain the manufactured world and identity.

The selective reading is most odd isn't it? Oh wait no it's not, if you think it's about the I/me/my and only listening to yes (wo)men.

They are female. Women are at statistically very low risk of assault from other females. If trans men are in male spaces, men are not at risk of assault from them either. Risk to men’s privacy is a concern. But men can take that one up.

Can you understand how that made women feel?

There’s really no point asking ButterflyHatched that. I would go so far as to say the only reasons to engage with him are to test your own views and explain them to others and to learn a little something about cluster B personalities. You ain’t ever gonna change his mind.

It’s why going to court is important. There are some people who aren’t really capable of ever playing nicely with others and one of the things we buy with our taxes is having a state to deal with them.

Absolutely this.

A very useful lesson.

totally

Nine times out of ten I'm not even talking to butterfly when addressing him, I know what he's going to say. The record never changes.

I just want other people to hear it.

Yep

...or maybe he gets off on the humiliation. We know it's a 'thing' with some in the 'community'

Let's face it.

Any male person who cannot recognise that full consent is needed from a potential sex partner before having sex is not a person who recognises if female people have consented or not to having male people access a female single sex provision.

I was certainly very surprised when there was a poster who demonised Maya Forstater for using accurate language while describing a male barrister while that barrister had just publicly admitted that they had sex with a partner without disclosing that they had told the partner that they were male. It seems that there are many people who don't understand consent and boundaries.

And yet, we then have a poster who declares that some women who are heavily invested in keeping them happy have told that male poster that they should use female single sex spaces and seems to think that those women have 'consented' on behalf of all the women who that male person has or will encounter in those female single sex spaces. Or has decided that the collective female consent is not necessary. It could be both too.

Either way, the topic of consent seems to be not something that some male people understand well, or even at all.

Since the overwhelming majority of people don't identify as trans, talking about non-trans really is another attempt to make the tip of the tail wag the dog. The sheer arrogance of attempting to define the rest of us as not what you are is breath-taking. You are a man who claims your inner womanly feelings outweigh your male body where women's single-sex spaces are concerned. You say you have female friends who confirm that to you.You and they are utterly wrong and the SC judgment has stated that with pellucid clarity. Women's spaces, services and sports are for those born female.

👏👏👏

I think it is beautifully illustrative, on a thread about how words are used and abused for genderism, to see gems like "non-trans woman" "knife to throat" "deranged segregationist" "sneering" etc etc.

Isn't it just?

The level of hyperbole is off the scale with the comments about segregation, holocaust, erasure of existence. They are deeply disturbed and deeply offensive comments.

The most we actually say here say is that a male is a man and that any male saying differently is acting in a self centred and unacceptable way.

Rather than it being about 'just wanting to pee' for women it's actually about just wanting some basic respect, privacy, decency and recognition of the boundaries of consent.

Nothing more, nothing less.

We do not wish for trans people to die in a fire. Or be decapitated. Or to kill transpeople. Transpeople coming out with that, have in all in their own heads and frankly that's not out problem to resolve.

Language has meaning. We know this. We can use it directly, but we aren't threatening. We can say thing bluntly, but this isn't denying anyone their rights.

All the nonsense that transwomen have lost rights is propaganda and a lie. The deliberate fundamental misrepresentation of the SC ruling is abhorrent and at times, unlawful.

One of butterfly's fellow transwomen has just said, on another thread

"Gender neutral toilets are used all across Europe without complaint"

So that's nice. Butterfly needn't worry.

Although it's a little odd that unisex toilets produce genocide on one hand, and absolutely no complaints on the other. 😁

Well that's great then. We can have gender neutral toilets all over the UK alongside the single sex spaces that women and men want and need, and everyone can be happy.

Issue over?

Or is the hope that saying in effect 'if you don't let men harass and use you in your spaces we'll take your spaces away and make you use mixed sex ones and you'll hate that, ha!' is going to somehow help this?

Edited to add: also Datun's point on that other thread: gender neutral is another way of men getting to be with those women and get around things like those women's boundaries, wishes, feelings, needs, diversities, decency, privacy, humanity etc.

I swear for some men unless they can see and know they're using and distressing a woman they can't be happy.

Butterfly comes on here for a reality check. His friends are constantly lying to him (validating his lie), so this is likely to be his only place for the truth.
It opens a window into why women are so different from him so he can see if the gap can be overcome. What he has done so far isn't working, he didn't get the promised end result.
He hears but doesn't listen to the truth that being a woman isn't about hormones circulating on one day or appearance. It isn't pretending to 'live' as a particular sex. The truth is women, like men, are individuals and it's only our biology that connects us. That biology was set at conception and we are stuck with it.
As a child/teenager, if this cult had existed then, I may well have picked the option to say I was male. Solely because they don't have female biological disadvantages and the wider social disadvantages that come with this. How many young girls want more freedom and choose this thinking they can escape womenhoood?
Butterfly does not realise he is not losing his maleness he is keeping this so loudly - he wants to own womanhood like a possession!