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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

I stuck my head above the parapet

322 replies

RedCrochetedWigFace · 16/05/2025 07:44

So I work for a smallish company but we have a few different branches throughout the country. I think each branch has a least one trans woman. I've no idea if we've any transmen. They don't make as much of a drama and noise if we do.

There is a staff group who are generally well meaning but they've started kicking off about how awful the supreme court ruling is blah blah blah. They are mostly women. I tried respectfully pointing out that no-one has lost any rights and that it's actually protecting women's rights.

I said that I want any trans people to feel comfortable at work and if that's not the case then action absolutely needs to be taken but that the supreme court judgement shouldn't make a difference to that. Someone said what about the "ugly women who look like men" who were dragged out of women's toilets. I said that was an awful thing to call a woman and misogynist. I was accused of avoiding the question. They said that the ruling meant that women who don't look/present as women will also suffer and seemed to think that undermined the argument that no ones rights were being negatively impacted.

I just reiterated that anyone feeling unsafe at work needs support regardless of gender/perceived gender or any other factor. I asked what the group wanted to achieve. They said they want trans people to feel safe at work. I dont think I hid my exasperation.

I'm pretty sure I was respectful throughout. I tried to be.

Now I have a meeting with my manager and HR on Tuesday. I have spoken with ACAS. It's not a formal meeting so I'm not allowed to take anyone in with me.

FFS.

OP posts:
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9
MissScarletInTheBallroom · 18/05/2025 08:24

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

The Taliban's oppressive patriarchal practices are based on sex, not gender.

Where are all the trans women in Afghanistan? Wearing trousers, sporting beards and enjoying being members of the ruling class. Because they can. Because they are male.

It is deeply, deeply offensive to suggest that the oppression of women in Afghanistan is based on gender rather than sex. If this were true then just about every woman in Afghanistan would identify as male to avoid it.

It is victim blaming of the worst kind to imply that the class of people being oppressed in Afghanistan are oppressed because of how they identify, rather than because of their biological sex.

StressedLP1 · 18/05/2025 08:25

AzureCritic · 18/05/2025 05:43

The term "universally agreed" in relation to biological sex refers to a consensus or near-unanimous acceptance among relevant experts, such as biologists, geneticists, and medical professionals, regarding the definition or characteristics of biological sex.

I'm not too sure your word salad would hold weight in a court of law 👍

Says who?

There is no universally agreed definition of the term “universally agreed”.

Myalternate · 18/05/2025 08:25

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 18/05/2025 08:17

A man or a woman who likes to believe that they are neither a man nor a woman because they believe they are not like other men/women.

But, but..but which public facilities such as changing rooms/public loos do they use?
Their poor little heads will explode…

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 18/05/2025 08:26

AzureCritic · 18/05/2025 05:43

The term "universally agreed" in relation to biological sex refers to a consensus or near-unanimous acceptance among relevant experts, such as biologists, geneticists, and medical professionals, regarding the definition or characteristics of biological sex.

I'm not too sure your word salad would hold weight in a court of law 👍

Can you provide us with some better word salad that you think actually would stand up in a court of law then please?

We are all ears.

Helleofabore · 18/05/2025 08:29

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 18/05/2025 08:26

Can you provide us with some better word salad that you think actually would stand up in a court of law then please?

We are all ears.

I look forward to this, MissScarlet.

Because for it to stand up in court it would need to be coherent.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 18/05/2025 08:32

Myalternate · 18/05/2025 08:25

But, but..but which public facilities such as changing rooms/public loos do they use?
Their poor little heads will explode…

My guess is that all pretty much all of the female non binary people are using women's toilets and changing rooms because, despite not being binary like the rest of us mere mortals, they are comfortable using the toilet and getting changed with one half of the binary population but not the other half. And because they need sanitary bins and don't like the smell of urinals.

As for male non binary people, it's more complicated. I think some of them are bearded hipster lentil weaving types who still use the men's because they know that they are men even if they like to tell the world they are special and different and not affected by toxic masculinity like other men. Some of them may choose to use women's spaces and compete in women's sports because it suits them to do so, or because non binary is merely a stepping stone on the way to deciding to identify as a woman.

You will note, of course, that there are two flavours of non binary person: male and female. They are exactly as binary as everyone else.

And I personally think that non binary is the most offensive and nonsensical gender identity of the lot. If a man wants to identify as a woman, well, he can't be a woman but at least we all understand what it is he wants to be. Non binary is nothingness. It's not a real identity in itself, it's just a moral judgement about other people, the boring normies who all apparently conform to rigid gender stereotypes. It's another way of saying, "You are boring but I am special."

Myalternate · 18/05/2025 08:42

Thank you for explaining it so clearly 👍

potpourree · 18/05/2025 08:46

Remember when the more "moderate" TRAs used to roll their eyes and say "don't be ridiculous, no-one's saying binary sex doesn't exist"...?

And I knew that wasn't true then. It's even more untrue now.

It does show that "people saying binary sex doesn't exist" is considered a step too far by these be-kinders.

ButtCheeks · 18/05/2025 08:47

CakeBlanchett · 18/05/2025 06:31

The claim that biological sex is so complex that people who insist on material reality are transphobes is an exercise in intellectual dishonesty. Biological sex is not a vague concept—it is a clear, well-established aspect of human biology determined at conception and expressed through a binary system: male and female. This binary is grounded in anisogamy, the fundamental difference between the two types of gametes in sexually reproducing species—large, immobile eggs produced by females, and small, mobile sperm produced by males. This definition is not up for debate; it is the foundation of sexual reproduction.

From the moment of conception, the chromosomal makeup (XX for females, XY for males) directs a cascade of developmental processes that differentiate the sexes. Embryos initially have both Müllerian and Wolffian ducts, which are precursor structures for the reproductive system. In typical female development (XX), the Müllerian ducts develop into the uterus, fallopian tubes, and upper vagina, while the Wolffian ducts degenerate. In typical male development (XY), the presence of the SRY gene on the Y chromosome triggers testes formation, which secrete hormones that cause the Wolffian ducts to develop into the epididymis, vas deferens, and seminal vesicles, while the Müllerian ducts degenerate. These are not arbitrary or socially constructed pathways—they are the direct result of genetic instructions shaped by millions of years of evolution.

The existence of Disorders of Sex Development (DSDs) does not negate this binary—it reinforces it. DSDs are rare conditions where normal sexual development is disrupted, but even here, affected individuals are still recognisably male or female. For instance, Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome (AIS) affects individuals with XY chromosomes (male) who cannot respond to androgens properly, leading to a female-appearing body. This is a case of a male (XY) with an atypical presentation—it is not a third sex.

Similarly, Congenital Adrenal Hyperplasia (CAH) is a condition affecting XX individuals (female) where excess androgen exposure can cause masculinised genitalia, but the individual remains female because they are biologically structured to produce eggs.

Claiming that these rare conditions “prove” sex is a spectrum is like claiming that the existence of people born with six fingers means humans do not have ten fingers. DSDs are exceptions within the binary, not evidence against it. The attempt to portray biological sex as “too complex” to define is not a scientific argument—it is an ideological strategy. It is designed to blur the clear, material reality of sex in order to undermine women’s ability to speak about the sex-based oppression they face.

This brings us to the laughable falsehood that the Taliban’s brutal misogyny is somehow disconnected from biological sex. The Taliban’s oppressive rules—forcing women to cover up, restricting their movement, denying them education—are not random cultural quirks. They are systemic methods of controlling female bodies and their reproductive capacity. Women are oppressed because of their sex—their biological role in reproduction—and this is a constant in patriarchal societies worldwide. Biological sex is the very foundation of why women are targeted for control, abuse, and subordination. Denying this is not just ignorance—it is a betrayal of women who suffer because of it.

And the claim that recognising this connection is “racist” is nothing but a bad-faith tactic to silence debate. Criticising the Taliban’s medieval treatment of women is not racism—it is a moral obligation. But calling women “racist” for daring to speak about sex-based oppression is a vile attempt to shame them into silence. In reality, the only bigotry on display here is the deep misogyny of those who would rather defend an authoritarian, woman-hating regime than admit the biological reality of sex. (And yes, I personally know women who actually worked in REWA and similar, at great risk to their lives.)

Finally, the cheap, sneering question, “Why are transphobes always racist?” is a textbook example of smear tactics. It is a lazy ad hominem meant to poison the well and avoid engaging with the argument. But it is also deeply ironic—because the people pushing this view are the ones perpetuating ideological colonisation by denying women worldwide the right to name their own oppression.
Denying the binary nature of sex is not a mark of progress—it is a rejection of basic biology, an erasure of women’s material reality, and a retreat into ideological fantasy. It is not the feminists who are spreading hatred—it is those who would rather gaslight women than allow them to speak the truth.

I want to hug you for writing this post.
Absolutely spot-on.
👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼

Justme56 · 18/05/2025 08:58

The whole argument makes no sense. I can’t go in the men’s loos because it’s full of people whose sex I can’t determine?

Enough4me · 18/05/2025 09:01

@AzureCritic when you have a clear thinking day, do you remember humans are animals and procreate through sexual reproduction?

LeftieRightsHoarder · 18/05/2025 09:02

AzureCritic · 17/05/2025 13:37

Are you being serious? This isn't... You can't... There has to be...

Actually. Never mind. I can't wait to see how this all plays out for you guys. Good luck getting an employer to exclude trans people in the first place. Most orgs are just ignoring the screeching transphobes and their wacko demands lol

Most orgs are just ignoring the law? Hmmm, let’s see how that turns out for them. Quite an few employers have discovered the financial cost of that recently, what a nasty shock.

Perhaps you could start a crowdfunder for employers who refuse to obey laws protecting women’s rights? I’m sure misogynists everywhere will pile in to that.

Annoyedone · 18/05/2025 09:03

I am confused about one thing though. If sex cannot be universally agreed, and no one can tell what sex anyone is, how do TW know they are not male? If no one can define what a woman is, how do TW know they are one?

Myalternate · 18/05/2025 09:10

I’ve recently read an article that states ‘Denying biological sex is anthropocentric and promotes species chauvinism’

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/bies.202200173

Cynicalaboutall · 18/05/2025 09:15

Never happened, PP is reporting a theoretical turn of thought she is trying out in her head!

NeverOneBiscuit · 18/05/2025 09:22

Cakeblanchett

That post was, hands down, one of the very best I’ve ever read on Mumsnet, & I’ve been here on & off for a long time.

The TRAs had to come into this with #NoDebate as there literally is no debate when it comes to the material reality of biological sex.

Their only response to your post would be about essences, feelings, wrong bodies, gender, identity etc. It never stacks up, hence after the usual to & fro of their arguments they end up squealing transphobe, & hope whatever platform/organisation is involved will shut you down.

Mmmnotsure · 18/05/2025 09:28

@CakeBlanchett 's summary post should be framed somewhere, or printed out and given to MPs, journalists...

BabaYagasHouse · 18/05/2025 09:37

CakeBlanchett · 18/05/2025 06:31

The claim that biological sex is so complex that people who insist on material reality are transphobes is an exercise in intellectual dishonesty. Biological sex is not a vague concept—it is a clear, well-established aspect of human biology determined at conception and expressed through a binary system: male and female. This binary is grounded in anisogamy, the fundamental difference between the two types of gametes in sexually reproducing species—large, immobile eggs produced by females, and small, mobile sperm produced by males. This definition is not up for debate; it is the foundation of sexual reproduction.

From the moment of conception, the chromosomal makeup (XX for females, XY for males) directs a cascade of developmental processes that differentiate the sexes. Embryos initially have both Müllerian and Wolffian ducts, which are precursor structures for the reproductive system. In typical female development (XX), the Müllerian ducts develop into the uterus, fallopian tubes, and upper vagina, while the Wolffian ducts degenerate. In typical male development (XY), the presence of the SRY gene on the Y chromosome triggers testes formation, which secrete hormones that cause the Wolffian ducts to develop into the epididymis, vas deferens, and seminal vesicles, while the Müllerian ducts degenerate. These are not arbitrary or socially constructed pathways—they are the direct result of genetic instructions shaped by millions of years of evolution.

The existence of Disorders of Sex Development (DSDs) does not negate this binary—it reinforces it. DSDs are rare conditions where normal sexual development is disrupted, but even here, affected individuals are still recognisably male or female. For instance, Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome (AIS) affects individuals with XY chromosomes (male) who cannot respond to androgens properly, leading to a female-appearing body. This is a case of a male (XY) with an atypical presentation—it is not a third sex.

Similarly, Congenital Adrenal Hyperplasia (CAH) is a condition affecting XX individuals (female) where excess androgen exposure can cause masculinised genitalia, but the individual remains female because they are biologically structured to produce eggs.

Claiming that these rare conditions “prove” sex is a spectrum is like claiming that the existence of people born with six fingers means humans do not have ten fingers. DSDs are exceptions within the binary, not evidence against it. The attempt to portray biological sex as “too complex” to define is not a scientific argument—it is an ideological strategy. It is designed to blur the clear, material reality of sex in order to undermine women’s ability to speak about the sex-based oppression they face.

This brings us to the laughable falsehood that the Taliban’s brutal misogyny is somehow disconnected from biological sex. The Taliban’s oppressive rules—forcing women to cover up, restricting their movement, denying them education—are not random cultural quirks. They are systemic methods of controlling female bodies and their reproductive capacity. Women are oppressed because of their sex—their biological role in reproduction—and this is a constant in patriarchal societies worldwide. Biological sex is the very foundation of why women are targeted for control, abuse, and subordination. Denying this is not just ignorance—it is a betrayal of women who suffer because of it.

And the claim that recognising this connection is “racist” is nothing but a bad-faith tactic to silence debate. Criticising the Taliban’s medieval treatment of women is not racism—it is a moral obligation. But calling women “racist” for daring to speak about sex-based oppression is a vile attempt to shame them into silence. In reality, the only bigotry on display here is the deep misogyny of those who would rather defend an authoritarian, woman-hating regime than admit the biological reality of sex. (And yes, I personally know women who actually worked in REWA and similar, at great risk to their lives.)

Finally, the cheap, sneering question, “Why are transphobes always racist?” is a textbook example of smear tactics. It is a lazy ad hominem meant to poison the well and avoid engaging with the argument. But it is also deeply ironic—because the people pushing this view are the ones perpetuating ideological colonisation by denying women worldwide the right to name their own oppression.
Denying the binary nature of sex is not a mark of progress—it is a rejection of basic biology, an erasure of women’s material reality, and a retreat into ideological fantasy. It is not the feminists who are spreading hatred—it is those who would rather gaslight women than allow them to speak the truth.

This post is an exemplar of why I come to MN FWR👌

MagpiePi · 18/05/2025 11:25

Myalternate · 18/05/2025 08:10

I’m reluctant to ask this question because I know it’s really nonsensical but what the blazes is a non-binary person?

Someone who has yet to develop a personality.

sashh · 18/05/2025 11:28

@CakeBlanchett I am in love with you.

NotAtMyAge · 18/05/2025 11:48

AzureCritic · 18/05/2025 04:01

You think this ruling retroactively rewrites history? lol

No, it simply clarifies what the situation has always been in law since the Equality Act 2010 was passed and came into force. The fact that determined efforts were made by Stonewall and other transactivist organisations to muddy the waters and teach erroneous interpretations of the act to employers, companies and public bodies is the reason this clarification was needed.

LesserCelandine · 18/05/2025 12:31

Silence is your best weapon. Don’t go in an jump on the defensive. Let them tell you what the issue that they see is. Write that down and ask them to confirm that what you have written is the issue. Don’t be afraid of awkward silences - wait for them to agree what you have written as the issue and don’t feel tempted to defend yourselves until they have agreed what you have written is correct. I suspect there will be quite a bit of backtracking at this point. Once you have their agreed complaint you then know what it is you need to respond to - and I would keep quite narrowly to that point.

MrsOvertonsWindow · 18/05/2025 12:31

CakeBlanchett · 18/05/2025 06:31

The claim that biological sex is so complex that people who insist on material reality are transphobes is an exercise in intellectual dishonesty. Biological sex is not a vague concept—it is a clear, well-established aspect of human biology determined at conception and expressed through a binary system: male and female. This binary is grounded in anisogamy, the fundamental difference between the two types of gametes in sexually reproducing species—large, immobile eggs produced by females, and small, mobile sperm produced by males. This definition is not up for debate; it is the foundation of sexual reproduction.

From the moment of conception, the chromosomal makeup (XX for females, XY for males) directs a cascade of developmental processes that differentiate the sexes. Embryos initially have both Müllerian and Wolffian ducts, which are precursor structures for the reproductive system. In typical female development (XX), the Müllerian ducts develop into the uterus, fallopian tubes, and upper vagina, while the Wolffian ducts degenerate. In typical male development (XY), the presence of the SRY gene on the Y chromosome triggers testes formation, which secrete hormones that cause the Wolffian ducts to develop into the epididymis, vas deferens, and seminal vesicles, while the Müllerian ducts degenerate. These are not arbitrary or socially constructed pathways—they are the direct result of genetic instructions shaped by millions of years of evolution.

The existence of Disorders of Sex Development (DSDs) does not negate this binary—it reinforces it. DSDs are rare conditions where normal sexual development is disrupted, but even here, affected individuals are still recognisably male or female. For instance, Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome (AIS) affects individuals with XY chromosomes (male) who cannot respond to androgens properly, leading to a female-appearing body. This is a case of a male (XY) with an atypical presentation—it is not a third sex.

Similarly, Congenital Adrenal Hyperplasia (CAH) is a condition affecting XX individuals (female) where excess androgen exposure can cause masculinised genitalia, but the individual remains female because they are biologically structured to produce eggs.

Claiming that these rare conditions “prove” sex is a spectrum is like claiming that the existence of people born with six fingers means humans do not have ten fingers. DSDs are exceptions within the binary, not evidence against it. The attempt to portray biological sex as “too complex” to define is not a scientific argument—it is an ideological strategy. It is designed to blur the clear, material reality of sex in order to undermine women’s ability to speak about the sex-based oppression they face.

This brings us to the laughable falsehood that the Taliban’s brutal misogyny is somehow disconnected from biological sex. The Taliban’s oppressive rules—forcing women to cover up, restricting their movement, denying them education—are not random cultural quirks. They are systemic methods of controlling female bodies and their reproductive capacity. Women are oppressed because of their sex—their biological role in reproduction—and this is a constant in patriarchal societies worldwide. Biological sex is the very foundation of why women are targeted for control, abuse, and subordination. Denying this is not just ignorance—it is a betrayal of women who suffer because of it.

And the claim that recognising this connection is “racist” is nothing but a bad-faith tactic to silence debate. Criticising the Taliban’s medieval treatment of women is not racism—it is a moral obligation. But calling women “racist” for daring to speak about sex-based oppression is a vile attempt to shame them into silence. In reality, the only bigotry on display here is the deep misogyny of those who would rather defend an authoritarian, woman-hating regime than admit the biological reality of sex. (And yes, I personally know women who actually worked in REWA and similar, at great risk to their lives.)

Finally, the cheap, sneering question, “Why are transphobes always racist?” is a textbook example of smear tactics. It is a lazy ad hominem meant to poison the well and avoid engaging with the argument. But it is also deeply ironic—because the people pushing this view are the ones perpetuating ideological colonisation by denying women worldwide the right to name their own oppression.
Denying the binary nature of sex is not a mark of progress—it is a rejection of basic biology, an erasure of women’s material reality, and a retreat into ideological fantasy. It is not the feminists who are spreading hatred—it is those who would rather gaslight women than allow them to speak the truth.

Poor old Azure. Spends all this time frothing and insulting women on here only to be greeted with this chef's kiss of a post. 😂

NotAtMyAge · 18/05/2025 13:41

BabaYagasHouse · 18/05/2025 09:37

This post is an exemplar of why I come to MN FWR👌

Me too. The magnificent women on FWR taught me so much back in 2017/8 when the Conservatives were talking about reforming the GRA and I've gone on learning ever since.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 18/05/2025 13:47

AzureCritic · 18/05/2025 04:01

You think this ruling retroactively rewrites history? lol

No, what it does is confirm that everyone who has been following Stonewall law for the last ten years has in fact been breaking the actual law this whole time.