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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

I stuck my head above the parapet

322 replies

RedCrochetedWigFace · 16/05/2025 07:44

So I work for a smallish company but we have a few different branches throughout the country. I think each branch has a least one trans woman. I've no idea if we've any transmen. They don't make as much of a drama and noise if we do.

There is a staff group who are generally well meaning but they've started kicking off about how awful the supreme court ruling is blah blah blah. They are mostly women. I tried respectfully pointing out that no-one has lost any rights and that it's actually protecting women's rights.

I said that I want any trans people to feel comfortable at work and if that's not the case then action absolutely needs to be taken but that the supreme court judgement shouldn't make a difference to that. Someone said what about the "ugly women who look like men" who were dragged out of women's toilets. I said that was an awful thing to call a woman and misogynist. I was accused of avoiding the question. They said that the ruling meant that women who don't look/present as women will also suffer and seemed to think that undermined the argument that no ones rights were being negatively impacted.

I just reiterated that anyone feeling unsafe at work needs support regardless of gender/perceived gender or any other factor. I asked what the group wanted to achieve. They said they want trans people to feel safe at work. I dont think I hid my exasperation.

I'm pretty sure I was respectful throughout. I tried to be.

Now I have a meeting with my manager and HR on Tuesday. I have spoken with ACAS. It's not a formal meeting so I'm not allowed to take anyone in with me.

FFS.

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Kinsters · 18/05/2025 05:00

AzureCritic · 18/05/2025 03:57

There is no universally agreed, nor scientific definition of 'biological sex', which is where the SC have possibly messed up most.

I mean what's the definition of "universally agreed"?! Is there anything that is universally agreed if the bar is set so high?

For the vast, vast majority of people their biological sex is simple. If you know what you need to do to make a baby then you know what your sex is.

sashh · 18/05/2025 05:19

AzureCritic · 18/05/2025 03:57

There is no universally agreed, nor scientific definition of 'biological sex', which is where the SC have possibly messed up most.

What a load of bollox.

Biological sex is determined by which gametes are produced. This is why we know male seahorses carry the zygotes.

It's strange isn't it that in Afghanistan the Taliban who are not that well educated know who has to cover up, not sing, not speak in public etc.

AzureCritic · 18/05/2025 05:43

Kinsters · 18/05/2025 05:00

I mean what's the definition of "universally agreed"?! Is there anything that is universally agreed if the bar is set so high?

For the vast, vast majority of people their biological sex is simple. If you know what you need to do to make a baby then you know what your sex is.

The term "universally agreed" in relation to biological sex refers to a consensus or near-unanimous acceptance among relevant experts, such as biologists, geneticists, and medical professionals, regarding the definition or characteristics of biological sex.

I'm not too sure your word salad would hold weight in a court of law 👍

Kinsters · 18/05/2025 05:46

AzureCritic · 18/05/2025 05:43

The term "universally agreed" in relation to biological sex refers to a consensus or near-unanimous acceptance among relevant experts, such as biologists, geneticists, and medical professionals, regarding the definition or characteristics of biological sex.

I'm not too sure your word salad would hold weight in a court of law 👍

Ok.

AzureCritic · 18/05/2025 05:48

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sashh · 18/05/2025 05:55

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I use the term 'Not well educated' based on the fact over 50% of men in Afghanistan cannot read. Many Afghans do not have the opportunity to study beyond primary level.

As far as I am aware 'Afghan' is a nationality not a race.

The point is we a) have an agreed biological definition of sex and b) generally in society people know the difference between men and women.

So please take your sanctimonious tone somewhere else and stop accusing people of racism for stating facts.

Annoyedone · 18/05/2025 06:01

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Why areTRAs so dumb? If sex is soooooo complicated, do please explain how 100% of babies are born from females, there are only 2 sexes, two types of gamete and this confusion only relates to humans and not any other species of mammals?

CakeBlanchett · 18/05/2025 06:31

The claim that biological sex is so complex that people who insist on material reality are transphobes is an exercise in intellectual dishonesty. Biological sex is not a vague concept—it is a clear, well-established aspect of human biology determined at conception and expressed through a binary system: male and female. This binary is grounded in anisogamy, the fundamental difference between the two types of gametes in sexually reproducing species—large, immobile eggs produced by females, and small, mobile sperm produced by males. This definition is not up for debate; it is the foundation of sexual reproduction.

From the moment of conception, the chromosomal makeup (XX for females, XY for males) directs a cascade of developmental processes that differentiate the sexes. Embryos initially have both Müllerian and Wolffian ducts, which are precursor structures for the reproductive system. In typical female development (XX), the Müllerian ducts develop into the uterus, fallopian tubes, and upper vagina, while the Wolffian ducts degenerate. In typical male development (XY), the presence of the SRY gene on the Y chromosome triggers testes formation, which secrete hormones that cause the Wolffian ducts to develop into the epididymis, vas deferens, and seminal vesicles, while the Müllerian ducts degenerate. These are not arbitrary or socially constructed pathways—they are the direct result of genetic instructions shaped by millions of years of evolution.

The existence of Disorders of Sex Development (DSDs) does not negate this binary—it reinforces it. DSDs are rare conditions where normal sexual development is disrupted, but even here, affected individuals are still recognisably male or female. For instance, Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome (AIS) affects individuals with XY chromosomes (male) who cannot respond to androgens properly, leading to a female-appearing body. This is a case of a male (XY) with an atypical presentation—it is not a third sex.

Similarly, Congenital Adrenal Hyperplasia (CAH) is a condition affecting XX individuals (female) where excess androgen exposure can cause masculinised genitalia, but the individual remains female because they are biologically structured to produce eggs.

Claiming that these rare conditions “prove” sex is a spectrum is like claiming that the existence of people born with six fingers means humans do not have ten fingers. DSDs are exceptions within the binary, not evidence against it. The attempt to portray biological sex as “too complex” to define is not a scientific argument—it is an ideological strategy. It is designed to blur the clear, material reality of sex in order to undermine women’s ability to speak about the sex-based oppression they face.

This brings us to the laughable falsehood that the Taliban’s brutal misogyny is somehow disconnected from biological sex. The Taliban’s oppressive rules—forcing women to cover up, restricting their movement, denying them education—are not random cultural quirks. They are systemic methods of controlling female bodies and their reproductive capacity. Women are oppressed because of their sex—their biological role in reproduction—and this is a constant in patriarchal societies worldwide. Biological sex is the very foundation of why women are targeted for control, abuse, and subordination. Denying this is not just ignorance—it is a betrayal of women who suffer because of it.

And the claim that recognising this connection is “racist” is nothing but a bad-faith tactic to silence debate. Criticising the Taliban’s medieval treatment of women is not racism—it is a moral obligation. But calling women “racist” for daring to speak about sex-based oppression is a vile attempt to shame them into silence. In reality, the only bigotry on display here is the deep misogyny of those who would rather defend an authoritarian, woman-hating regime than admit the biological reality of sex. (And yes, I personally know women who actually worked in REWA and similar, at great risk to their lives.)

Finally, the cheap, sneering question, “Why are transphobes always racist?” is a textbook example of smear tactics. It is a lazy ad hominem meant to poison the well and avoid engaging with the argument. But it is also deeply ironic—because the people pushing this view are the ones perpetuating ideological colonisation by denying women worldwide the right to name their own oppression.
Denying the binary nature of sex is not a mark of progress—it is a rejection of basic biology, an erasure of women’s material reality, and a retreat into ideological fantasy. It is not the feminists who are spreading hatred—it is those who would rather gaslight women than allow them to speak the truth.

Helleofabore · 18/05/2025 06:56

NoBinturongsHereMate · 18/05/2025 00:40

The SC clarified that the EA means biological, not certified, sex throughout. It doesn't define biological sex, because this was done in Corbett v Corbett in the 1970s.

Yes. That is what I read but forgot the case where it was defined.

Thank you.

Helleofabore · 18/05/2025 07:03

IwantToRetire · 18/05/2025 01:23

Jumping in with 2 left feet again.

The question I was answering way about hadn't biological sex already been defined in the EA.

You are quoting a totally different function.

Which is you check the Parliament web site where the ammendments to the EA are listed, said that that was one of the purposes.

So as you want to be pedantic one function of the SSE - there does that make you feel better.

But the mere fact of that one function confirms that "for all purposes" except when proporationate, men with a GRC (up until the court ruling) were "legal women".

Sigh.

i wasnt asking why it wasn’t defined in the EA. I already knew it had been defined previously. But thank you for your post.

I was asking because there seemed to be a poster implying there was no definition of biological sex in the SC Judgment. And that poster has posted after you that they don’t believe there is a historic precedent definition of biological sex that the SC drew on.

GenderRealistBloke · 18/05/2025 07:22

AzureCritic · 18/05/2025 04:01

You think this ruling retroactively rewrites history? lol

Harvard recently discovered that a Magna Carta that they thought was a 14th century copy is actually an original.

Has it been an original only since the discovery, do you think?

Same principle. It’s known as the declaratory principle. It’s a bedrock of common law. Courts discover the meaning of legislation, just as the historians discovered the age of the Magna Carta.

You’re welcome to hold a different view, but in that case you hold a minority view not shared by the courts or parliament.

Overhaul54 · 18/05/2025 07:23

@Annoyedone
Fantastic, thank you.

I am going to note your comments for a discussion—argument—I am having with some of my oldest friends. They make all the points you covered and I need coherent reasoning to counter their confused thinking.

Helleofabore · 18/05/2025 07:28

AzureCritic · 18/05/2025 03:57

There is no universally agreed, nor scientific definition of 'biological sex', which is where the SC have possibly messed up most.

The SC only needed to know there was a case setting the definition for purposes of law already clarified in UK to refer to. And there is.

If some people want to believe that the earth is resting on the back of a turtle and there are turtles all the way down, then it is a free country and they can believe that.

The SC didn’t need to update the definition of biological sex already used as precedence for the clarification in this case. And making changes to existing definitions to suit current theoretical beliefs would be a significant error.

Stepfordian · 18/05/2025 07:41

AzureCritic · 18/05/2025 03:57

There is no universally agreed, nor scientific definition of 'biological sex', which is where the SC have possibly messed up most.

You probably think that gravity is just a theory too.

MaryBeardsShoes · 18/05/2025 07:44

AzureCritic · 18/05/2025 03:57

There is no universally agreed, nor scientific definition of 'biological sex', which is where the SC have possibly messed up most.

You’re quite a silly billy!

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 18/05/2025 07:48

AzureCritic · 18/05/2025 03:57

There is no universally agreed, nor scientific definition of 'biological sex', which is where the SC have possibly messed up most.

It doesn't need to be universally agreed. It just needs to be understood by non insane people, which it is.

The job of the Supreme Court is not to add new definitions into the Equality Act, but to interpret what is already there.

If the Equality Act doesn't go into as much detail as you would like about what the words "male" and "female" mean, it's because 15+ years ago when the legislation was being debated and enacted nobody was pretending not to understand what these words mean and so it wasn't deemed necessary to define them. Some terms are defined in legislation to aid with interpretation, but if you defined every word in the legislation the first 50 or so pages of every law would resemble the dictionary. The principle is that if a word is not specifically defined in the act, it has its usual meaning.

The usual meaning of "male" is "a member of the sperm producing sex and the usual meaning of "female" is "a member of the childbearing sex".

It's worth noting that none of the people currently throwing their toys out of the pram about the Supreme Court judgment and claiming that it isn't the role of judges to decide on matters relating to biological sex because they're not doctors are even genuinely concerned about the complicated medical cases. Why would they be? People with DSDs are not affected by the Supreme Court judgment. They are still either male or female (albeit with certain medical complications) and they will continue to use whichever spaces they were using beforehand.

The people trans activists are up in arms about are generally people who are completely and unambiguously male but want to be in women's spaces. How would it help in those cases for there to be a "better" definition of biological sex? They would still be male according to any definition, unless you want the definitions to be "anyone who feels that they are male" and "anyone who feels that they are female". And if that's what you want then you are being highly disingenuous to claim that biological sex is complicated and that the Supreme Court hasn't come up with a proper definition of biological sex and that they aren't qualified to do so anyway because they are judges and not doctors.

There is a proper definition of biological sex. You just don't like it.

And to quote Posie Parker, "I'm not a vet, I still know what a dog is."

Annoyedone · 18/05/2025 07:50

@AzureCritic some people believe the earth is flat, therefore there is no universal agreement if it being round. Does this mean that the earth is not round? There is no universal agreement in evolution, does this mean it does not exist? If sex is not binary, why do transwomen always claim to be women and transmen always claim to be men? If sex is not binary, what are the other sexes called, what gametes do they produce and what are their roles in reproduction?

NB people with DSD are either male or female. Don’t try and insult them by claiming they are a 3rd sex.

thenoisiesttermagant · 18/05/2025 07:51

And yet, I'll bet Azure doesn't put their 'complex' and 'it's not that simple' understanding of gravity to the test by jumping off a building, and knows who exactly would be needed for a surrogate if they needed one. Somehow.

Men who think they can abuse women because of their ability to spout word salad are honestly my least favourite of the bullies. Reminds me of Dr Upton.

Anyway Azure's lack of scientific knowledge or opinion doesn't matter. Azure is wrong in scientific fact. The law is against Azure and everyone who's important agrees with us, not Azure

thenoisiesttermagant · 18/05/2025 07:52

Annoyedone · 18/05/2025 07:50

@AzureCritic some people believe the earth is flat, therefore there is no universal agreement if it being round. Does this mean that the earth is not round? There is no universal agreement in evolution, does this mean it does not exist? If sex is not binary, why do transwomen always claim to be women and transmen always claim to be men? If sex is not binary, what are the other sexes called, what gametes do they produce and what are their roles in reproduction?

NB people with DSD are either male or female. Don’t try and insult them by claiming they are a 3rd sex.

Exactly - If sex isn't binary there isn't any 'trans' - there's nothing to transition to or from.

Igneococcus · 18/05/2025 07:53

There is a proper definition of biological sex. You just don't like it.

I'm about to leave for a conference which will be attended by almost exclusively biologists, sex will be an important factor in some of the research presented there, and absolutely none of my fellow biologists present will have any doubt about what we mean when we talk about sex.

Myalternate · 18/05/2025 08:10

I’m reluctant to ask this question because I know it’s really nonsensical but what the blazes is a non-binary person?

Annoyedone · 18/05/2025 08:12

Myalternate · 18/05/2025 08:10

I’m reluctant to ask this question because I know it’s really nonsensical but what the blazes is a non-binary person?

An attention seeking numpty

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 18/05/2025 08:16

thenoisiesttermagant · 18/05/2025 07:52

Exactly - If sex isn't binary there isn't any 'trans' - there's nothing to transition to or from.

To be fair, sex is binary but you still cannot transition from one to the other. The concept of "trans" is a nonsense.

sanluca · 18/05/2025 08:16

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Are you now seriously trying, and failing, to state that patriarchy is not based on sex?

Of course the oppression of women and girls in Afghanistan is based on patriarchy and patriarchy is based on sex. Men wanted to be sure any offspring was theirs and ensuring women are property and are locked up all the time is the best way of ensuring that. This in a nutshell is the base of patriarchy.

This is why women get so mad when you are denying their sex based oppression. You can't tackle the patriarchy if you deny what its foundations are. And trying to pass off the oppressing class as the poor minority the oppressed class needs to be kind to is just infuriating.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 18/05/2025 08:17

Myalternate · 18/05/2025 08:10

I’m reluctant to ask this question because I know it’s really nonsensical but what the blazes is a non-binary person?

A man or a woman who likes to believe that they are neither a man nor a woman because they believe they are not like other men/women.