I stuck my head above the parapet

[RedCrochetedWigFace]

So I work for a smallish company but we have a few different branches throughout the country. I think each branch has a least one trans woman. I've no idea if we've any transmen. They don't make as much of a drama and noise if we do.

There is a staff group who are generally well meaning but they've started kicking off about how awful the supreme court ruling is blah blah blah. They are mostly women. I tried respectfully pointing out that no-one has lost any rights and that it's actually protecting women's rights.

I said that I want any trans people to feel comfortable at work and if that's not the case then action absolutely needs to be taken but that the supreme court judgement shouldn't make a difference to that. Someone said what about the "ugly women who look like men" who were dragged out of women's toilets. I said that was an awful thing to call a woman and misogynist. I was accused of avoiding the question. They said that the ruling meant that women who don't look/present as women will also suffer and seemed to think that undermined the argument that no ones rights were being negatively impacted.

I just reiterated that anyone feeling unsafe at work needs support regardless of gender/perceived gender or any other factor. I asked what the group wanted to achieve. They said they want trans people to feel safe at work. I dont think I hid my exasperation.

I'm pretty sure I was respectful throughout. I tried to be.

Now I have a meeting with my manager and HR on Tuesday. I have spoken with ACAS. It's not a formal meeting so I'm not allowed to take anyone in with me.

FFS.

Request the meeting is recorded.
Go prepared with knowledge of Forstater case, how GC views are protected beliefs, and in any case ask them, if it comes to that, where did you say anything wrong, you stated facts.
Tell them your feels we're hurt. How dare they bring female attractiveness in the mix and compare women with men.

Hope it goes well. It’s possible that HR and management, in light of the clarification of the law, are trying to work out how to reverse ferret without being obvious so just maybe if you can go in with some sensible common sense it might be a relief to them.
It sounds like you acquitted yourself well with the colleagues who were being daft.

Huge huge kudos for doing the right thing well done.

(record the meeting in your pocket for your own personal use, that’s legal)

anticipate what they may say or ask and have short, clear legally sound statements to refer to if you need to

Nobody has lost any rights.

maybe. Things a like

1. “The Supreme Court has clarified that, under the Equality Act 2010, ‘woman’ refers to biological sex. This ensures legal clarity and consistency in applying sex-based rights and protections.”

1. “This ruling does not remove any rights from transgender individuals. They continue to be protected against discrimination under the ‘gender reassignment’ provisions of the Equality Act.”

1. “The Equality Act allows for single-sex services when it’s a proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim, such as ensuring privacy and dignity for women and girls.”

1. “Employers must ensure that all employees feel safe and respected at work, regardless of their gender identity. Or their sex. Toilets separated by sex are legally mandated”

Good luck. I’m not a lawyer but I suggest you stay calm and stick to a few points, don’t get dragged into wider debate. And take notes.

Points that seem pretty bullet-proof to me:

1. you were offering the perspective of someone who believes that sex is binary, immutable and important in many circumstances, and not the same as gender identity (roughly, the Forstater protected belief)
2. the Supreme Court clarifies what the law is, it doesn’t change the law. So it can’t be the case that anyone has lost legal rights. You wanted to be helpful to clear up a misunderstanding.
3. I’d steer clear of the ugly women point, but if asked, your colleague claimed that ugly women were an example of people who had lost rights. Per point 2, no one has lost rights, and you felt that the view that ugly women are less women than others is a view often associated with misogyny. It imposes standards of femininity for who counts as a ‘real’ woman. You know that all on the committee are committed to inclusivity and felt it important to explain why that view was un-inclusive.

Well done for speaking up. Your "belief" is protected in law. Single sex spaces are protected in law.

An ugly woman isn't a man. How weird and rude.

One transwoman per branch is quite a lot compared to the general population, I’d be concerned someone high up has got an agenda, if I were you I’d be looking for a new job!

Well done for pushing back.

Further to what @TangenitalContrivences said, you can record a meeting secretly if it is for personal use only, but if you can be on problematic legal ground if you then share it, eg if this turns into a disciplinary matter (I hope it doesn’t!) and you get union reps or similar involved.

I would suggest that after the meeting you write up your memory of the points made by each side and send a copy to the other people who were there asking them to countersign it and return. On paper and electronically.

As everyone else has said, keep your own points brief and respectful, demonstrate that you know the law, don't let them lead you down the garden path.

Good luck.

Yes. And if you're not sure of anything, just say that you'll get back to them.

Plenty of people will be happy to help if things get tricky. You're the one with the law behind you, OP.

Nobody should be bullied at work, that includes you!

You could join the Free Speech Union. They are very supportive and respond to queries very quickly.

As this isn't formal could you start by mainly listening to find out what they are asking first. Volunteer little for the questions and answer with things like, "I think the conversation was mainly about the supreme court confirming single sex spaces are needed, I don't really remember the rest as X talked about "ugly women" and it upset me so much I tried to end the conversation and it's what I remember now".
If asked to judge people who say they are the opposite sex, you could say you've always wanted equality for all and see everyone as a unique person regardless of their differences.
They probably had a complaint and want to check that you don't actively judge any differences.
If they push on the subject of men going in women's loos (dressed up as gender woo), I'd answer with, "the supreme court said there should be separate sex facilities, the conversation was about that because that's what they ruled on". It's not a lie, it's more like a politician's side-step.
If they ask about gender you could say it's personal to you and you didn't think anyone had to declare it at work, same as sexual orientation (use their game back at them).
Gender is smoke and mirrors after all!

Not sure when the meeting is, but can you maybe ask (via eg email) what the meeting is about. That, as a minimum records that the meeting was planned, and probably they need to then write something about their expected topic of conversation/outcomes expected - or record that they didn’t tell you.

ETA well done OP, you won’t be the only one in your org with GC views. Good luck

Yes, get it in writing. Have they had a complaint, is there the chance of a disciplinary or dispute etc?

Yes get everything in writing, every step of the way. Keep a running record of phone calls, informal encounters, comments. Save emails, photograph anything you think might vanish and save that.

With luck the meeting will be an amiable nothing, just happening as a box-ticking exercise, but if it goes pear-shaped having a record of events is golden.

Btw, to any lurkers enduring workplace (or study place) bullying or inappropriate treatment of any sort, that goes for you too. If you have to refer a situation up the line, having the details of who said and did what, and when, and where, cuts straight through any 'he said/she said' crap.

Why are you having a meeting? At whose request?

If you've been told you are "not allowed" to bring anyone in with you, is it safe to assume you aren't the one who has called the meeting? So who, and why?

Someone said what about the "ugly women who look like men" who were dragged out of women's toilets.

Has this actually happened? Aside of the misogyny of it, it has the sound of a hypothetical scenario someone has used on social media.

Are you in a union, OP? Lots of them are problematic on this issue but even so.

Absolutely. You can however transcribe it if you'd like. I just discovered iPhones to that for free when you record a voice note!

This is a very good call. it's quite cheap and they would love a bit of this.

GC views are also protected as places are finding out to their literal cost. Well done for your reasonable clarification. Your colleague who thinks men are ugly women; misandrist and misogynist!!

Oh gawd - been where you are - hideous. I feel like we are living in a parallel universe. First ask for an agenda, who’s going to be there. Get it recorded ( ask first and if they say no then ask for a note taker) and I would just let them talk- most people ( we know who we mean) talk themselves into a litigious situation. I known my ex employer did but I was so traumatised by it all I just resigned and also felt bad suing a charity.

keep us posted on how it goes.

You did the right thing and a very brave thing.

You are bang on - the law did not change.

It's been spelled out that 'women'when used in legislation means female.

Men and women are entitled to single sex toilets and changing rooms at work. (R.21 if the workplace H,S and welfare regs 92).

They can be as sad & outraged as they like, if an organisation allows males in female toilets it's currently an offence. End of.

This isn't YOUR feelings, this is the facts following a recent high profile SC ruling.

I think the advice of GenderRealistBloke up-thread is wise and would be the factual approach id stick to.

Best of luck & we are all here to back you. I hope I'm as strong as you if/when the need arises.

Listen to Helen Joyce interview on Woman’s Hour. She is very concise and will help you with bullet point facts should you need them. Well done on sticking your neck out.

The Workplace (Health, Safety and Welfare) Regulations 1992

This is the name of the legislation that requires employers to provide separate 'conveniences' for men and women. It's worth knowing it exists and remembering its name.

Well done! 👏 encouraged to see how many women are feeling empowered to push back in the workplace. Some good advice re the meeting on this thread, hope it goes well x

Well done you. As others have said, let them do the talking. Ask that the meeting is recorded. If they refuse , have pen & paper handy and make whatever notes you can of points they raise and questions (before you respond).

Don't feel pressurised to answer any questions. responses like "Can you clarify that? Please be specific? What is being alleged?

They may frame is as a friendly chat to get your views, in the hope you'll walk into the trap of saying too much as you're anxious? If you have to respond, do so briefly using some of the excellent points above.

And if you haven't already, write down you recollection of the discussion, point by point detailing how it started and everything you remember that you or others said. Verbatim quotes where possible or summarising if you can't remember. Have that with you and refer to it IF you think it's helpful.

If others made comments that you found offensive or discriminatory, record them as well. You may (or may not) want to use them.

Good luck. Remember it's the process that's the punishment