Why don't trans women care if women feel unsafe?

[ItsCoolForCats]

I listened to the Stephen Nolan show earlier on BBC Sounds. They were discussing the FA ban on male players in the female category. A lady from SEEN in Sport was on and was great.

Then there were two transwomen on (one who is involved with Mermaids). There was lots of talk about their feelings and some quite infuriating twisting of scientific fact (women come in all shapes and sizes, so transwomen have no advantage). But one thing that came up several times was how they didn't feel safe using male facilities. Stephen Nolan did the faux naive thing quite effectively and tried to turn it around to get them to consider other people's viewpoints, unsuccessfully. It was back to their feelings again. The levels of entitlement was quite astonishing.

Why don't they ever consider women who feel unsafe sharing spaces with males? Is it because these women are just bigots that need to be re-educated and reframe their trauma?

Then with all due respect you are not listening and projecting your feelings on others.

can I strongly ask you and your daughter to use the gender neutral/mixed sex facilities to make transwomen feel welcome and support women who want them, to have the single sex facilities they need? This would make everybody happy.

Can someone link which episode of the Nolan show this was on?

Just because you haven't heard it doesn't mean it isn't happening!

How hard is this to understand?!!!

Women are conditioned to not complain and to self exclude rather than put themselves at risk.

I did a campaign against Bounty in maternity wards off the back of so many women here relating their truly awful experiences. The trusts all replied they'd never had any complaints. Then you explored why women didn't make complaints - there was a huge range about time, not making a difference, being emotionally blackmail into shutting up and being grateful, complaints made but not through official channels, not having the confidence to complain. The list went on...

My point being that this is invisibility in action. It doesn't mean there isnt a problem. It means that those people who have a problem don't feel they can use the system as the system is expecting them too. Sometimes the system itself IS the problem.

The fact you are hearing about transwomen complaining and there being zero evidence of problems - and the reverse being true for women IS the tell.

Learn to look beyond your bubble and to try and understand silences where they occur as it's often not a straight forward as you are trying to make out here!!!

There have been many many thread on MN expressing fear of violence, fear of losing jobs, discomfort and loss of dignity, straight intimidation, lack of power to complain, self excluding and actual incidents of assault and vouyerism. This is backed up by legal cases and convictions .

Yet this is dismissed as transphobia whilst males are taken absolutely deadly seriously.

And women are supposed to put up.

Even the 'well I've never heard a complaint' is particularly of the process of delegitimising and dismissiveness.

Stop it. It's not cool.

I don't think trans identifying males care too much about what women think of feel. If a woman is validating them then they like her but not as much as they like themselves of course. If a woman is objecting, pointing out they are actually men they right her off as a bigot, a nazi, far right, a fascist, a witch, a terf and they literally advocate hanging, violence, rape and burning at the stake for those women. As men they find it easy to dehumanise women in this way and they feel most entitled to vent their anger and violence on women, women who simply said no.

More and more I see trans ideology as the most vivid manifestation of misogyny in society. I do think that increasing numbers of women who have perhaps been lucky with men in their personal lives are being woken up to just how men view women via trans ideology, how they actually see us, how we are not really valid people to them but a collection of parts that they feel entitled to use however they can or like.

When men object to trans ideology the anger is nowhere near as sharp or as violent as it is towards women. Trans identifying men see women as emotional punching bags, sex objects, fawning validators or evil witches. They simply have zero empathy for women and are more likely full of envy and hatred for us.

Exactly this.

I would add that the 'inclusion first' model was the Stonewall law inflicted that led to Karen White's victims, Bryson's victims, the list is long. Peggie's losing her job and being forced to have her periods discussed in the national press, the Darlington nurses changing in a cupboard, the refuges issues.....

We've destruction tested it. It did not work. Because 'inclusion first' just means 'men first' and ends with the absolute destruction of women's equality, rights, and named women.

The judgment does actually explain in depth why case by case is unworkable legally but women have ten years of bitter experience why it does not work practically. No. Women need their own spaces. End of. How men feel about that is irrelevant because they will never put anything before their own wishes and needs.

Because as many have said, they are men and not women. They have no clue what it is like to be a woman and wearing a dress, pumping yourself full of hormones and turning your willy inside out won't ever make you one.
I take utter exception to a man with a mental disorder trying to wheedle their way into women only spaces, sport or anything else simply because they 'feel' like it.

I can't remember who came up with it but there's a no nuts comparison I've seen discussed here and on other platforms.

If you label a food stuff 'no nuts/does not contain nuts', that means it cannot contain nuts. It can't have just a wee bit of nuts or one type of nut only. The inclusion of any nuts, makes it by definition, an item which is not safe for those with a nut allergy.

As with single sex services and spaces. The inclusion of men, however they identify, no matter how lovely they are, makes it by definition a mixed sex service or space.

But somehow this change in use can be handwaved away as 'just be kind. my pal wouldn't hurt a fly!. Just ignore the women who now cannot use those services!'

https://www.legalfeminist.org.uk/2024/11/06/sex-peanuts-and-statutory-interpretation/

Thank you!

What about physically weak men, effeminate men, boys, men of certain ethnicities? Should women budge up and let them into our spaces too. Or is it time for all men to get a grip and sort out any problems that they have with each other?

People can hand wave it away all they like...and they will do....because they are still in a state of shock - because all of a sudden, and very unexpectedly, the bubble has burst and everyone is now free to say that men are not women - not just factually, but legally.Most have not read the ruling, nor do they understand what it was attempting to do.

They may feel a need, quite honestly very annoyed by all the negative comments.
Fully aware lots of men abuse, a disabled/ trans toilet would be a compromise.

I’ve never been called so many things that I don’t understand! Clownfish, echo chamber. No wonder people drop a comment then back off, but that’s called something too right???

People “drop their comments and then back off” because they can’t argue their case, @pippy1958

Feel free to argue your case for a self selecting group of men to use women only spaces.

As I posted earlier " needs" are felt within certain contexts and sets of conditions. Change both the context and the messaging you are subject to, and the need will most likley disappear or be experienced differently.

It is very sad and troubling that young people are being encouraged to mutilate healthy bodies in this way. Do you not understand the long term physical implications of castration for a man?

That because you are knowingly posting on a forum (which you must know) serves a large community of people who have been resisting the imposition of trans ideology.

If you pose questions in such a place, what might you otherwise expect?

I am a white person living with a goldfish in Basingstoke. As my goldfish has never personally experienced racism, it seems much more likely that it doesn't really happen, doesn't it?

And yes, the instant misogyny. It's as if you either haven't read all the many, many, many accounts of what has happened to women, or they didn't outweigh your own need to put men first regardless of any other consideration but you don't feel comfortable to openly admit to the sexism.

Do you know, I think most people,have not thought it all through at all. They have just accepted what they have been told.

Most people are social creatures, who like to belong and to feel part of a group. Having friends and being liked is more important to them than almost any other need. Furthermore, most people are not naturally political creatures and so don't understand the political implications of things. They don't have that instinct. They vote with their feelings. The trans lobby is all about feelings, and is is quite happy to manipulate them too.

Off you go then. Go and suggest this to trans Reddit. I bet you get your eyes well and truly opened.

I know what you mean, pippy1958 - this board, which used to be called Feminism:Women's Rights, and is still often called 'FWR', and is now called Feminism: Sex and gender discussions, has been running for ages - I don't know how long, I'm a relative newcomer.

The discussions here follow news reports, parliamentary debates, scientific reports, etc., as they appear, and so there is an already established body of knowledge/familiar expressions. I don't know the origin of all of them, but they have become familiar to me anyway - like I know that somebody - I think it was the Natural History Museum in London - posted as a gesture of trans support about the clownfish, because clownfish change sex, therefore ...

You see? I'm not sure about the origin, but I AM NOT A CLOWNFISH still made me laugh😄

This is also a board where sex and gender are discussed, as it says in the title, and being very practically minded, grounded, factual kind of people, we operate on the basis that humans are either male or female, and you can't swap between the two.

So it's inevitable that anyone who wants to argue here that in fact there are more than two sexes, or that men can become women or vice versa, is going to be met with those awkward things: scientific facts.

It's a bit like arriving in the middle of a meeting of geographers and claiming that the earth is frisbee-shaped or something like that.. the response is going to be challenging to say the least!

Here, have pics of two different transwomen safe in the men's toilets:

https://x.com/RocknRoller2019/status/1920553022347730977

https://www.change.org/p/boris-johnson-a-plea-for-third-spaces-for-transgender-men-and-women

If you like, you could Google how many reports there have been of transwomen being harmed in mens spaces in the UK (to save you time, it's none).

Then if you like, you could Google Katie Dolatowski. Or look up the porn genre that is transwomen masturbating in women's toilets, with the sound of women taking little children to the toilet in the background. Or you could find the post from last week of a MNer who had a transwoman colleague who would go and masturbate in the next cubicle to her in the work toilets, while she was puking due to morning sickness and having urinary incontinence. Just for starters.

Women and girls aren't human shields for men who don't want to use men's spaces,and we're not tools for their fetishes either. We're actual humans.

The option to read previous threads is available as well as sources beyond FWR.

Working on the basis that you are posting in good faith…you have chosen to post on a well established message board which has a specific take on a subject. This has been mentioned across mainstream media as well as various corners of the internet. Like any community there are in jokes, a code of conduct, specific language use etc etc

Stick around, it’s awash with well informed women who are often also witty and hilarious. You might like it.

There are a few things I would like to say in response to this.

1. There are many documented examples of women and girls being made to feel afraid, and in some cases much worse, by trans women/girls in female only spaces. The most obvious example is that of Katie Dolatowski, who was convicted of sexually assaulting girls aged 10 and 12 in two separate incidents in women's public toilets. There are also countless examples of trans women masturbating in women's toilets and changing rooms, as well as at least two ongoing court cases involving female nurses being forced to share changing rooms with male colleagues who identify as trans women, both of whom behaved in an inappropriate and sexually predatory way. Just because you haven't personally experienced it and don't know of anyone who has, doesn't mean it isn't happening.
2. Women who might otherwise have spoken up about their experiences of being made to feel afraid by trans women in women's spaces have been silenced. And with good reason. Just look at how the ones who have dared to speak up have been treated. Read about Sandie Peggie and the Darlington nurses, and how they were treated by their employer when they expressed their discomfort. Read about what happened to Sarah Summers when she asked the Survivors' Network if just one of their women only rape crisis groups could be, well, women only. Read about the Edinburgh Rape Crisis Centre and how they treated female rape survivors who didn't agree with their "inclusive" definition of a woman. Read about the elderly female patient who was raped by a trans woman on a female only hospital ward and then gaslit by the NHS trust who told her and the police that it couldn't have happened because there were no males present on the ward. Look at all the rape and death threats gender critical feminists are subjected to for speaking out. You can't even say with any certainty that it hasn't happened to someone you know, someone you are close to even, because women have been bullied into silence.
3. If trans women feel uncomfortable in men's toilets, surely that is a problem for men to solve? Why must women and girls be made to feel uncomfortable and unsafe just so that trans women can feel comfortable? I'd really like you to do some soul searching here. Because for those of us who have been here a while and spent a long time thinking and talking about this, it seems as though trans women can't possibly be inconvenienced or made to feel uncomfortable in any way, because they are special women, whereas any discomfort or inconvenience suffered by ordinary women doesn't matter and can be ignored. What is so special about trans women, that their needs must be prioritised over ours? Well, it's quite simple really. They are special because they are in fact men. Once you see it, you can't unsee it.

Please do stick around here and talk to us.

But be warned.

You're likely to go from "be kind" to "card carrying TERF" in about 60 seconds.

Everyone does when they think about it for a hot minute.