BBC series I Kissed a Boy decision "homophobic in the extreme" - LGB Alliance

[IwantToRetire]

We have written to Tim Davie, Director-General of the BBC, about the homophobia displayed in the casting of a trans identified female in their upcoming series of ‘I Kissed A Boy’.

By doing this they are telling young gay men watching the show that they must be attracted to women who are pretending to be male. This is regressive, insulting and ‘homophobic in the extreme.’

Read our letter here:

https://lgballiance.org.uk/bbc-series-homophobic-in-the-extreme/

(Sorry cant find a version of the letter that isn't text via a graphic.)

I haven't watched any of it but I'm taking a wild guess from the photos in the link that @IcakethereforeIam posted that Lars is 4th from left in the blue and red shirt?

If I'm right it took me about half a second to recognise them as female.

Does the programme do the public information service of making it clear to viewers that Lars has to tell the other man what sex Lars is before they have sexual contact otherwise this could be sex by deception and Lars could end up in court? Or does the programme fluff about pretending it doesn't matter because trans?

Even if the setup is totally fake it's still telling people that it's fine to get up close and personal with someone who doesn't know what sex you are. It's not. Apart from putting transmen into physically dangerous situations it's also potentally illegal. There's been at least one UK case where a transman could not use their trans identity as a defense against sex by deception. That case was sex with a young heterosexual woman and I don't see why it would be different deceiving a gay man.

From the Jo Bartosch article it seems Lars has been immediately honest about her biological sex. I remember a blind date article in the Guardian when they set a lesbian up with a tw without telling her. Still makes my blood boil.

Well, that honesty is an improvement at least.

Thanks for the link. Glad the gay man seems to be happy now even if the memories still bring back the pain.

What struck me the most is the person at the end trying to convince him that he's wrong. Wow, just wow. Gay flag in profile pic of course.

Reiterating some of the previous comments, unlike sex, sexual attraction is a spectrum. Some men are bisexual and roughly equally attracted to men and women. Others are more attracted to men but still have had relationships with women, including sexual, that were enjoyable and that they didn't regret. But some (and arguably most) gay men are exclusively attracted to men. One of the reasons that some gay men, in closed company, are offensively emphatic about their disgust of female anatomy is the still prevalent societal expectation that one just hasn't found the right woman. That's not a justification for said attitude, we should all demand less misogyny from all men gay and straight, but it is important to understand it's source.

IMO the idea of TM being gay men is extremely damaging to women. It puts women at high risk on gay hookup apps which are inundated with 'gay' men only interested in trans men, obviously heterosexuals gaming the system. They are physically much weaker and more vulnerable than their male partners. And the abuse that happens gets filed under sexual violence in the gay community and almost certainly under reported as the women themselves who often identified as men to escape trauma of earlier sexual abuse. (thus are especially emotionally vulnerable and prey to manipulation and exploitation) It's a perverse situation.

And of course there's the issue of 'widows' -- partner's of gay men who thought they could suppress same sex desire sufficiently to live a heterosexual life. That kind of manipulative behavior should be strongly discouraged, and the idea of TM being gay men just encourages it, i.e. no gay man dating a trans man is oblivious to the fact that he's in a heterosexual relationship, and the idea that if he can make it work, he can live a normal life as heterosexual man is inescapable even if he's unwilling to say so forthrightly.

(Edit: pruning some of the plentiful typos)

Does the programme do the public information service of making it clear to viewers that Lars has to tell the other man what sex Lars is before they have sexual contact otherwise this could be sex by deception and Lars could end up in court?

Nope

Or does the programme fluff about pretending it doesn't matter because trans?

Yes it fluffs about. Nobody gets the space to say they’re not comfortable with having someone who identifies as the opposite sex and identifies as a same sex attracted person on this dating show which is the first one specifically for gay men on UK TV. Lars is neither of those things and has taken the place of a gay man who could have been on IKAB instead. Why should gay men have to budge up like that?

They completely fluffed it - Lars immediately informed their match that they were trans. I assumed that this had been a condition of the show's producers to avoid the sex by deception problem. But as you quite rightly point out - it doesn't state anywhere that Lars' admission is not just a voluntary gesture in the spirit of transparency, but is actually a legal requirement... most viewers will be none the wiser. I think this should be made clearer - similar to a "don't try this at home" sort of disclaimer?

It’s so ridiculous - obviously this is something the men need to know. If being trans meant you did actually change sex, or “were” the opposite sex in any way other than a fantasy inside your head, this wouldn’t be so important. The whole situation just emphasises that the trans man is not a man, hasn’t changed sex and is not gay. And that everyone else is supposed to entertain and be polite about something so completely unreasonable and insulting.

it’s massively disrespectful to the men but also really exposing and awkward for the TM.

Is anyone still watching this? I binged the lot last night and there's just the final episode to go now.
(Un)Surprisingly Lars has made it to the end. The entire storyline has just seemed incredibly fake to me.
I mean Lars and Reuben? Reuben looks like a high fashion model or something next to tiny Lars who looks like a rather unremarkable teenage lad.
Lars has hardly been given any airtime. I think I've heard her speak maybe 10 times and nothing of substance since the original 'coming out'.
The main scenes of Lars have just been of her climbing over Reuben and making out on the sunbeds/sofas (almost as if to really hammer it home that gay men DO find tiny transmen incredibly hot and that Lars is a dominate top despite being half Reubens size )
There hasn't been a single discussion between the boys about the fact Lars is a biological female and how that fits into their gay male world. This would certainly be a topic of conversation in 'real life' .Only a bit of a jibe from a couple of them about not buying their relationship and not really working on the outside.
And I agree. I've never seen such an odd mismatched couple. Perhaps the guy Lars was originally paired seemed a slightly more believable pairing, but Reuben the Diva??
Something else I noticed is that most of the other guys, regardless of physique or dress, acted quite camp and effiminate at times. Go girlfriend! Oooh check her out! Come on girls! Etc whereas Lars was being as laddish in behaviour and appearance as possible. Because any camp behaviour might draw attention to the fact she's actually female?

Interestingly Lars does pass rather well from the waist up. But during the cowboy party where she was wearing tight shorts and a pink cowboy hat, she definitely looked female, especially from behind.

Only the final to go now and I doubt Reuben will confirm a relationship with Lars. If he does then it will confirm to me that the entire thing is a pile of steaming scripted horsecrap.

But yes, I have noted that thoughout the series ALL the guys have just appeared to accept Lars as a gay man just like them. But I have serious doubts this would ever happen in real life.
I mean they all seem like a bunch of nice caring lads, but they are gay, they like men. I just can't believe they'd feel the same about a woman, no matter if they have a moustache

There hasn't been a single discussion between the boys about the fact Lars is a biological female and how that fits into their gay male world. This would certainly be a topic of conversation in 'real life'.

Yes I would imagine there has been that conversation or would have been if it’s possible to be off camera - but then they will also have been picked for their self-declared genderwoo credentials I would imagine. So they may be in the same position as lots of people in workplaces and other groups where they can’t even bring it up as they don’t know who they could discuss it with safely. The whole setup is an exercise is shutting down/preventing anyone saying “but I’m same-sex attracted and that’s ok/should be respected”.

@WhatterySquash
Yes I would imagine there has been that conversation or would have been if it’s possible to be off camera - but then they will also have been picked for their self-declared genderwoo credentials I would imagine. So they may be in the same position as lots of people in workplaces and other groups where they can’t even bring it up as they don’t know who they could discuss it with safely

Yes I mean they have very possibly discussed Lars trans status privately off camera. My issue was that apart from Lars coming out, there has barely been a mention of her being trans during the rest of the series.
Of course, I could be wrong. But I doubt that it's because they all see her as an equal gay man, rather that this is what the show wanted the viewers to believe- that gay men don't see any difference, believe that TMAM and aren't in the least bit 'transphobic'.

The fact the trans issue has barely been mentioned has just felt like the huge elephant in the room to me, and the whole thing fake as hell.
Yes, it's a reality show, it's scripted. But it hasn't appeared in the slightest bit real.

As I noted earlier. There has only been one comment from one of the boys (Jordan something?) that hinted at an issue with Lars and Reuben. It wasn't stated outright but I doubt he was suggesting the incompatibility between them was only to do with looks or personality. But also the fact that Lars isn't an actual man.

I guess we will see if a future series of 'I kissed a girl' features a trans identifying male.

I really hope it doesn't, because I would fully expect it to show young lesbians happily accepting the 'some lesbians have penis' BS.

I think gay men are in a much stronger position to reject the 'some gay men have vaginas' line and not be coerced into accepting females in their dating pool, but young lesbians are in a much more vulnerable position.

For a show about love and true feelings and having fun and honest gay male relationships without shame, there’s massive pretending going on about this issue in a really emotionally unhealthy and potentially coercive way.

Not only did they have to pretend they were open to a relationship with Lars they also had to pretend Dannii is Kylie

Oh that's the main thing that riles me about this show in general.
The obviously scripted swooning every time she appears by ALL the participants.
Oh wow!she's just gorgeous! What a woman! Stunning, Danni is so beautiful blablabla. They did it in iKAG too as if I bunch of 20 year old lesbians would fall over themselves every time she made an appearance. Unbelievably cringeworthy.
Is she that vain that constant OTT compliments about how amazingly gorgeous she is, has to be including in the script ?

The game show aspect of these reality TV programmes has an interesting effect. Contestants go on there knowing that their profile will be raised and their model/presenter/influencer etc credentials will get a boost. Staying to the end is essential and therefore being in a couple is key to that so there is a certain amount of situationship which occurs as none of the couples from Series 1 stayed together. Usually there is a big focus on physical contact in these shows but Reuben and Lars kissing really has only had brief coverage given that they did seem to spend a lot of time smooching. There was one really sweet part where Lars said to Reuben "thanks for accepting me as I am" at which point I did rather worry as early coverage of Reuben indicated a roving eye...

The most recent episode shows a group conversation about how the final "kiss off" is like a declaration of exclusivity and quite a serious commitment. At that point Reuben & Lars appeared to have a difference in understanding, with Reuben indicating that he hadn't seen it as a serious commitment while Lars had...The rest of the group later staged an intervention and tried to prepare Lars for the idea that Reuben might not be totally invested in their relationship. As someone said above, the way that episode was shot Lars looked very female in all their scenes. I don't know if the conversations were scripted but it made me think of that the whole group are a really kind bunch. I am nervous for the final episode - they have invited family and friends and Danni will be acting as master of ceremonies in front of a matrimonial-looking flower arch for the final kiss-off...

Grindr accepts trans men (two words, not one btw) yes.

My guess is that transmen are probably more likey to hook up with other transmen than with men on grindr.

Your guess is wrong.

Having an opinion on trans people is one thing but personally I think the gender critical community should stop speaking for and on behalf of gay people.

Well, I don't know, there's one of us here who's denying that gay men by definition are attracted to people with willies, and it's not me.

Many in the gender critical movement are gay themselves. I certainly don't speak for anyone but there are plenty of gay men out there complaining about straight women who identify as gay men appearing on Grindr and saunas. Much in the way lesbians are fed up with TW on their apps. Of course there will be some gay men who are fine with TM but they're certainly in the minority

And if Grindr accepts transmen..one word , not two, so what?
There isn't a single dating app out there that doesn't include T, because they've managed to get anything that excludes them shut down. It's hardly a reflection of acceptance. Just more proof of the movement bulldozing their way into spaces not meant for them.

If gay people are hooking up with the other sex, doesn't that make them straight and thus, not able to have an opinion on gay people? So should stop speaking for and on behalf of gay people?

I saw a Reddit post recently by a transman who’d been told not to reveal they were trans, I presume on apps, before hooking up with gay men. They’d done this 6 times and each time it didn’t work out, with several of the men saying ‘I’m gay’. One had been quite angry and tbh the women are potentially putting themselves in danger by not being upfront.

We're allies. Gay men like Mr Menno, Jack Jewell, James Dreyfus, Adam Carter, Dennis Kavanagh and many others have made their feelings about trans identified women in their spaces extremely clear. They have also drawn attention to the extreme homophobia of transgenderism and 'transing away the gay'. We support them and amplify their point of view. I'm referring specifically to gay men because of the subject of this thread, but of course we also stand with the amazing lesbians fighting this misogynistic homophobic ideology.