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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

BBC series I Kissed a Boy decision "homophobic in the extreme" - LGB Alliance

230 replies

IwantToRetire · 11/05/2025 18:52

We have written to Tim Davie, Director-General of the BBC, about the homophobia displayed in the casting of a trans identified female in their upcoming series of ‘I Kissed A Boy’.

By doing this they are telling young gay men watching the show that they must be attracted to women who are pretending to be male. This is regressive, insulting and ‘homophobic in the extreme.’

Read our letter here:

https://lgballiance.org.uk/bbc-series-homophobic-in-the-extreme/

(Sorry cant find a version of the letter that isn't text via a graphic.)

OP posts:
illinivich · 04/06/2025 12:14

Men who want to be women make a huge deal about being safe around other men. They often talk about 'coming out' to a date where and when its safe to do so.

They are less likely to 'come out' to women in the same way, for obvious reasons.

Yet somehow women who want to be men are safe in the exact same situation?

There's absolutely no logic in trans world.

AmaryllisNightAndDay · 04/06/2025 14:50

dubaichocolate · 04/06/2025 10:19

I saw a Reddit post recently by a transman who’d been told not to reveal they were trans, I presume on apps, before hooking up with gay men. They’d done this 6 times and each time it didn’t work out, with several of the men saying ‘I’m gay’. One had been quite angry and tbh the women are potentially putting themselves in danger by not being upfront.

They might have been given this advice as a way to avoid straight men who are there to hook up with transmen and are not interested in men at all.

It's dangerous however you look at it.

KnottyAuty · 04/06/2025 18:07

dubaichocolate · 04/06/2025 10:19

I saw a Reddit post recently by a transman who’d been told not to reveal they were trans, I presume on apps, before hooking up with gay men. They’d done this 6 times and each time it didn’t work out, with several of the men saying ‘I’m gay’. One had been quite angry and tbh the women are potentially putting themselves in danger by not being upfront.

This is no different to using misleading photos or lies about age. Trickery to get a first date - but as soon as the deception is discovered it obviously isn't going to go well is it? Whoever gave that advice is clearly an idiot - maybe they were just after a hook-up but if they do want a relationship I would suggest honesty as the best policy

KnottyAuty · 04/06/2025 18:08

Christinapple · 04/06/2025 00:36

Your guess is wrong.

Having an opinion on trans people is one thing but personally I think the gender critical community should stop speaking for and on behalf of gay people.

Does that mean that trans people will please stop speaking for women, or turning up in their sports etc?

GermaineBloodyGreer · 04/06/2025 18:39

illinivich · 03/06/2025 23:40

My guess is that transmen are probably more likey to hook up with other transmen than with men on grindr.

From what I understand, straight and bisexual man can and do use Grindr. Particularly straight men may pursue trans-identified females (many of which are said to be pre-op and aren't even on cross-sex hormones) as they're seen as easier 'gets', just as long as they're told what they want hear—an affirmation of their gender identity.

To the trans man, they're having 'gay sex'. To the straight or bisexual guy, it's just spicy straight sex.

TheKeatingFive · 04/06/2025 18:45

KnottyAuty · 04/06/2025 18:08

Does that mean that trans people will please stop speaking for women, or turning up in their sports etc?

Lol

I'm sure you'll find everyone is allowed to advocate for themselves except for us lowly women who should STFU and do what the men tell us 🫠

Arran2024 · 04/06/2025 19:36

I believe that on Married at First Sight they gauged the participants' attitudes to things like trans partners at the beginning, so they knew that the guy they matched to the trans woman was potentially open to it, even though he didn't get a say.

And I wonder if they did something similar here.

OuterSpaceCadet · 04/06/2025 21:54

GermaineBloodyGreer · 04/06/2025 18:39

From what I understand, straight and bisexual man can and do use Grindr. Particularly straight men may pursue trans-identified females (many of which are said to be pre-op and aren't even on cross-sex hormones) as they're seen as easier 'gets', just as long as they're told what they want hear—an affirmation of their gender identity.

To the trans man, they're having 'gay sex'. To the straight or bisexual guy, it's just spicy straight sex.

Edited

Bloody hell, straight men are going on Grindr because they know they can fuck transmen easily as long as they pretend to go along with their gender id?

I don't disbelieve that for a second (going by Men's previous achievements, it seems like standard behaviour really) but do you have a source?

WhatterySquash · 04/06/2025 22:38

It's grim if true - but I suppose also shows that reality will always out. Whether it's "lesbian" TW targeting lesbians or men targeting "gay" TM, straight men will go to various lengths to get into women's pants. It's nothing new for a bunch of lies to be involved, and no surprise they'll happily exploit gender guff as a means to an end.

GermaineBloodyGreer · 04/06/2025 23:25

No sources as it's purely anecdotal on my part. It's what I've gathered from things I've either read online or in conversation with people who've had these types of experiences, including a friend of mine who is a de-transitioned FtM. Obviously, it's not something you'll hear straight men openly discuss and admit to.

There's a bit of similarities that can be seen in this type of behaviour and "chasers", albeit chasers from my understanding are fetishistic in their pursuit for trans on these dating apps, as opposed to straight blokes targeting trans-identified females simply because they're women.

Here's an example of FtM's discussing 'chasers' on Grindr. You can surmise by some of the replies the attitudes of the men targeting and messaging these women.

www.reddit.com/r/ftm/comments/1ccvk8o/how_often_does_everyone_here_deal_with_trans_guy/

GallantKumquat · 05/06/2025 01:15

This reply has been hidden

This reply has been hidden until the MNHQ team can have a look at it.

lcakethereforeIam · 05/06/2025 10:26

If straight women with a trans identity of some flavour are on Grindr what are they looking for exactly? From what I understand of it, it's a hook up app., originally for gay men. It's unlikely to lead to committed relationships. If there are straight men on there mopping up the tm and female nbs, they're giving the actual gay men a break from larping women. If these women want a man to fuck, well that's what they're getting and, even better, a man who's actually in to what they're offering.

I don't like deception but this seems unpleasant but relatively harmless.

Shortshriftandlethal · 05/06/2025 10:31

OuterSpaceCadet · 04/06/2025 21:54

Bloody hell, straight men are going on Grindr because they know they can fuck transmen easily as long as they pretend to go along with their gender id?

I don't disbelieve that for a second (going by Men's previous achievements, it seems like standard behaviour really) but do you have a source?

According to a gay male friend, there are many straight and/or marriied men on Grindr, who are on there for vicarious or forbidden thrills. I find it difficult to conceive they are there for women who identify as men, though. He also says that many gay men enjoy wearing women's underwear

Shortshriftandlethal · 05/06/2025 10:38

I've been watching IKAB and the most fancied man on the show has now decided he fancies the transman the most. I guess he must be bisexual. None of the other men seem remotely interested; even the one who feigned interest initially.

TempestTost · 05/06/2025 10:44

I mean - if a transman is looking for a gay man to hook up with, what is the actual differernce if it's with a straight man? Other than said straight man is actually interested?

Anyway - as far as the television show, I am pretty all in with acting, in that I don't care if actors "match" the sexuality, sex, ethnicity or race, of the role, I only care if I believe they character is who they are supposed to be.

OTOH, I hate agenda casting and I think it's usually a kind of bigotry.

SnoopyPajamas · 05/06/2025 11:37

GermaineBloodyGreer · 04/06/2025 23:25

No sources as it's purely anecdotal on my part. It's what I've gathered from things I've either read online or in conversation with people who've had these types of experiences, including a friend of mine who is a de-transitioned FtM. Obviously, it's not something you'll hear straight men openly discuss and admit to.

There's a bit of similarities that can be seen in this type of behaviour and "chasers", albeit chasers from my understanding are fetishistic in their pursuit for trans on these dating apps, as opposed to straight blokes targeting trans-identified females simply because they're women.

Here's an example of FtM's discussing 'chasers' on Grindr. You can surmise by some of the replies the attitudes of the men targeting and messaging these women.

www.reddit.com/r/ftm/comments/1ccvk8o/how_often_does_everyone_here_deal_with_trans_guy/

Oh, wow, that FTM subreddit is . . . something else. The thread you linked to was barmy. I clicked around to a few others out of morbid curiosity, and it's a bit sad, really. These women are everything you'd expect them to be.

The first thread I landed on was a woman sharing the 'relatable story' of how TSA found her packer at the airport, and pulled it out in front of her family. She pretended it was a crochet mushroom, of course. Because it's one thing to be a grown woman walking around with a rubber penis in your pants, pretending to be A Real Boy - but the idea that you might be honest with your family about this fantasy is just too wild and crazy.

The second thread contained many grown women debating if someone would be unreasonable to cut all friends who watch the new HBO Harry Potter show out of her life. The majority opinion was that OP was being perfectly reasonable in her desire to virtue signal herself into social isolation. The thread quickly devolved into an earnest debate about whether pirating the show might be acceptable. Because then the big scary evil JKR might not make any money from it. There were many sadly pathetic elements to this thread, but the saddest, to me, was that I don't think OP had even read a word of JKR's posts. The way she talked about "learning of" Rowling's great unforgivable evil made it clear her information came solely through the jungle drums of trans twitter. This woman is cutting off real friends because they won't shun JKR, and she doesn't even really know why she's supposed to hate her. That one was genuinely a bit sad.

So I moved on to a more light-hearted thread. One of those in which the women call each other "bro" a lot and larp as just guys being guys, dude! This one featured a woman who has some sort of packer you can pee through. It had fallen out in the bathroom and bounced across the floor in the sight of other men! Cue much forced laughter from the 'guys'. My favourite contribution to this thread was something along the lines of "bro, my ADHD ass forgets about my dick all the time 🤪". No-one pointed out to this woman that she doesn't have a dick, and it's not "ADHD" to forget you put a lump of plastic in your pants, if you do it every day.

In another thread, one of the women wants to share the moment she realised she'd attained true manhood. Are you ready for it? It was when . . . drum roll please . . . she was writing lesbian fanfiction for Grey's Anatomy! See, her usual preference is for writing 'depraved' gay male fanfiction. But she suddenly felt empowered to write lesbian fic, when she realised she was no longer fretting about whether or not her depiction of the women in it was "male gazey". Transition had given her the ability to objectify women with ease! And write Meredith Grey having 'mommy issues' sex (whatever that is) with another woman in a lift, without the slightest shred of guilt! This was mind-blowing stuff to our OP, and she was duly affirmed by the rest of the thread. Apparently, this is a common road to Damascus moment for trans men. And the fact that so many of them are interpreting their "gender identity" through the lens of fanfiction, rings no alarm bells for anyone.

The cognitive dissonance is so extreme, the whole subreddit is like a strange exercise in self-parody. Except no-one on it seems to have the faintest idea how they're coming across. It's mildly fascinating, actually.

SionnachRuadh · 05/06/2025 11:52

So many of them being so steeped in fanfiction is... interesting and a bit disturbing. I'm still not sure whether autoandrophilia exists, but if it does, I think that's where it would come out.

I find FtM spaces online to be a mix of the sad and the (maybe inadvertently) funny. On the one hand young women with obviously very poor mental health, who are very similar to the eating disorder cohort.

On the other hand, those threads that remind me of teen girls larping as boys, which seems to mean putting on their brothers' clothes, lots of belching and crotch grabbing, and saying things like "dude, let's talk about beer and cars and chicks". I wonder if they compete about who's got the biggest packer.

illinivich · 05/06/2025 11:59

One of the concerns about all of these shows is that its really promoting the idea that no one should have any sexual boundaries.

The show from way back, with straight men being tricked into competing for a man who thinks he's a women, framed the idea that these men were really homophobic for not being happy when it was revealed. So they were being shamed for being straight.

I think since then, there is a lot more consent written into the programming. Either contestants know in advance or are told during filming. So the participants arent being educated, but the audience is.

GermaineBloodyGreer · 05/06/2025 12:33

@SnoopyPajamas It is, isn't it? Just one big happy LARP. I've also noticed the prevalence of the women calling each other 'dude', 'man', 'bro' et cetera. An abject parody.

@SionnachRuadh Here's an interesting video of a de-transitioner discussing her autoandrophilia. It's quite fascinating and, in my opinion, a look into a growing number of young trans-identified girls that spend a lot of time in these online fandom and fanfiction spaces and have come to believe that their interest/hyperfixation on slash fiction is informed by the belief that they are really 'gay boys' trapped in female bodies.

GreenFriedTomato · 05/06/2025 13:28

@SnoopyPajamas
She pretended it was a crochet mushroom, of course.

😂😂😂😂

A sentence I never expected to read today but I might take that idea to my next crafting session.

SionnachRuadh · 05/06/2025 13:45

@GermaineBloodyGreer This is really fascinating, thanks so much for sharing. Courtney is such a smart and engaging young woman.

A lot of what she says reminds me of Kath Stock talking about immersive fantasy. But in the literal fiction consuming sense. I think there are certain fandoms that provide a safe space for kids who might be ND or just kind of misfits without many friends, many of whom grow up to be lesbian or gay or have trans identities, and who still remain superfans well into adulthood. I believe that's so with HP fandom, hence the rage at JKR, and it rings a massive bell with me in terms of Doctor Who fandom.

There may be elements of the immersive fantasy that are older than we think, but now they've got a chance to blossom online.

CocoPlum · 05/06/2025 13:52

GreenFriedTomato · 12/05/2025 01:46

I watch MAFS (one of my cringey pleasures). The groom was a queer pansexual type and when things went pear shaped with Ella, they both left the programme but Ella came back in paired up with a another former contestant who was a very laddish Essex lad type. It didn't convince anyone really because there was no physical stuff from the get go and the Essex lad always looked uncomfortable and used excuses like not feeling ready to be intimate and so on. It was clearly very set up by the producers. He ended up dating Katie Price after the show.

I've noted that mainstream TV reality shows have started including TIMs in female dating contexts (Shane from 90 day fiancée). They're always young and fairly well-passing (although Ella usually dressed like a porn star, fake boobs on display etc) and may contribute to the public's perception that TWAW, lovely, feminine, just like other women. Ella was constantly crying and sharing the brave heart-breaking journey of being trans, and fawned over by the other female contestants. There may even have been pillow fights. Or I could just be imagining that.
Shane on 90 day fiancée was less 'barbie doll' but a main feature of that storyline was fear of being outed/his Turkish fiancee's family realising he was male and having to pop to the bathroom regularly to shave in case they noticed 5 o clock shadow. I think the sister was aware. I wondered how they could not be aware..
Maybe in Turkey, they think English women are often 6 feet tall and with deep voices. But as said, these shows are scripted so it was probably all made up.

Here's Ella sharing thoughts on the SC ruling with the insufferable Richard Madeley.

I am pleased in a way that a transman is being featured on a gay show to show the other side of things. It is disgustingly homophobic but I wonder if 'normie' viewers will feel that. Or just think..gay men like men and he looks like one so where's the problem.

By the way, is this tranman contestant one of the 6ft tall bearded body builders we keep hearing about lately?

I called Ella as trans from the first moment of screen time!

However, on the honeymoon s/he was in a bikini and no make up at one point and the difference was wild, the male facial features and body shape were so much more evident.

GreenFriedTomato · 05/06/2025 14:08

By the way, is this tranman contestant one of the 6ft tall bearded body builders we keep hearing about lately?
Turned out not so (surprise!)
Lars is tiny next to Reuben and still small next to the other contestants.

Yikes! I headed over to BBC to see if the final episode is out and 'What it feels like for a girl' has popped up in recommendations.

That's one for a different thread.

SnoopyPajamas · 05/06/2025 14:19

SionnachRuadh · 05/06/2025 13:45

@GermaineBloodyGreer This is really fascinating, thanks so much for sharing. Courtney is such a smart and engaging young woman.

A lot of what she says reminds me of Kath Stock talking about immersive fantasy. But in the literal fiction consuming sense. I think there are certain fandoms that provide a safe space for kids who might be ND or just kind of misfits without many friends, many of whom grow up to be lesbian or gay or have trans identities, and who still remain superfans well into adulthood. I believe that's so with HP fandom, hence the rage at JKR, and it rings a massive bell with me in terms of Doctor Who fandom.

There may be elements of the immersive fantasy that are older than we think, but now they've got a chance to blossom online.

I don't want to derail the thread too much, but I really think fanfiction is the key to unlocking much of the FTM explosion of the last few years. (Specifically the 'gay boy' variety.) Obviously the rise in misogyny and porn are factors. They're what these girls are fleeing when they try to escape into 'manhood'. But their whole concept of manhood comes from fanfiction. It's one of those generational divide things, where if you've been in that environment, it's clear as day what's happening with these girls, and if you haven't, you only half understand it.

We've got a whole generation of girls whose sexuality has been moulded by AO3, in the same way their male peers have been moulded by Pornhub. These girls have all these warped ideas of what gay men are, and that's been their outlet for masturbation, from a formative age. It's absolutely a factor. It's driving their sexual tastes and altering their self-image as sexual beings. In many cases, these (young, female, virgin, autistic) writers will start consuming gay porn, in the interest of writing more 'accurate' sex scenes. And then because it's much easier to self-insert into fiction than other types of pornography, even acts that might have repelled them if just seen on a screen, start to feel alluring. Like choking. And so they slip on down the slope.

The thing is, I'm not anti fanfiction. I'm not here to laugh at it. At its best, it can be great. It's a creative outlet, like any other, and a predominantly female one. But the fan writing community has the same problem as the gay community. Because they're so used to being mocked and put down by outsiders, they place a high value on being welcoming to anyone inside the tent. If you shame someone in the fanfiction community, you're practically JK Rowling. You're practically Hitler.

The result is that there is no quality control, and no real attempt to shield younger members of the community from being exposed to inappropriate content. The mentality is very much that if you chose to ignore a tag and click in to a fic that has an explicit warning, that's on you. The author did nothing wrong in posting their father-son incest noncon vore fic - you're the problem for clicking on it! Which is fine, but only works if you ignore the fact that much of the site's user base are not rational adults making rational adult decisions. They're kids. Kids are curious and impatient and often won't understand what they're clicking through to see, until it's too late. They may not even understand what all the different tags mean, if they're new to the site. It's a very disingenuous argument.

The AO3 model is the equivalent of giving your 12 year old the tv remote and saying "I'm trusting you not to watch that 18 rated horror movie". Then being shocked when they give in to curiosity and end up having screaming nightmares for the next six weeks. Like, really. What did you expect the 12 year old to do? Are you really going to blame them in this situation?

AO3's main selling point has become that they will not enforce censorship on their writers, no matter what. Some other aspects of the way the site is structured have exacerbated this, but basically, it's resulted in a race to the bottom. The site is swamped with poor quality works, because the most shocking and sexual content is rewarded with clicks. So authors keep churning that out, and burying the better stuff that updates more slowly.

A frequent complaint in fanfiction spaces is how hard it is to find "gen" fics - stories that are just about the world and the characters. Or stories that aren't solely "fluff" (tooth-rottingly sweet happy endings) but don't contain explicit sex scenes either. Both these things used to be common before AO3 became dominant. On most other fanfic sites, there was a limit in how explicit you could be, and fics would be removed if they failed to meet that standard. Mature rated fics were hidden from the main page of works, and you had to opt in to see them. A sex scene might be permitted in a fic rated as mature - but things like BDSM, bestiality, and most of the 'kink' content that now proliferates on AO3, would not. Obviously there were times when this safeguarding butted heads with censorship. But it made the entire space feel much safer for teens.

Given that teen girls are probably the biggest audience for fanfiction, I'd say that matters. Teen girls are being affected by the lack of safeguarding in this space. I respect the aim of AO3, to be a user-funded archive that preserves fanworks. I even respect their anti-censorship stance. But you can still have that content, if you put it behind a wall where only users who know where to look will find it. It shouldn't be accessible to visitors who don't even have an account with the site. It shouldn't be all over the main page for a fandom, with the responsibility resting on the (often underage) viewer to scroll past or filter it out.

That was a bit of a digression, sorry. But this is a fascinating subject, and an overlooked piece of the puzzle when talking about female transitioners. I'd love to see studies on it. Helen Joyce touched the tip of the iceberg in Trans, but if she ever wanted to write another book, there is so much to explore and unpack in this topic.

SnoopyPajamas · 05/06/2025 14:26

SionnachRuadh · 05/06/2025 11:52

So many of them being so steeped in fanfiction is... interesting and a bit disturbing. I'm still not sure whether autoandrophilia exists, but if it does, I think that's where it would come out.

I find FtM spaces online to be a mix of the sad and the (maybe inadvertently) funny. On the one hand young women with obviously very poor mental health, who are very similar to the eating disorder cohort.

On the other hand, those threads that remind me of teen girls larping as boys, which seems to mean putting on their brothers' clothes, lots of belching and crotch grabbing, and saying things like "dude, let's talk about beer and cars and chicks". I wonder if they compete about who's got the biggest packer.

I have a lot of sympathy for them, but it is hard not to laugh at the way they carry on. I don't know if you've ever watched Days of Boyhood on youtube, but she nails it

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