BBC series I Kissed a Boy decision "homophobic in the extreme" - LGB Alliance

[IwantToRetire]

We have written to Tim Davie, Director-General of the BBC, about the homophobia displayed in the casting of a trans identified female in their upcoming series of ‘I Kissed A Boy’.

By doing this they are telling young gay men watching the show that they must be attracted to women who are pretending to be male. This is regressive, insulting and ‘homophobic in the extreme.’

Read our letter here:

https://lgballiance.org.uk/bbc-series-homophobic-in-the-extreme/

(Sorry cant find a version of the letter that isn't text via a graphic.)

If you're a gay man and a gender believer, you can simply say "TMAM" and "nobody should have to fuck anyone they don't want to!" and "I adore Lars/ whoever but we get on better as friends". It's totally navigable for a gay man. You can get some woke cookies and only do cock.

What are transmen going to do about it, realistically? They're physically women, socialised as women. Even their own religion tells them to pipe down occasionally because they're displaying "male privilege".

Actually I might suggest (woke) Cookies and (little chocolate) Cock to Ben and Jerry's as a new flavour.

"I’d say it’s really unfair on the TM too because the men in the show are not going to want to date that person"

PMSL at a pile of women, mostly mums, chatting shite about what gay men like.

So this article by a trans man and his hook ups with a gay man: "it goes without saying that cis gay men being into trans men is nothing new", was that made up? There isn't a single gay man who would be open to dating a trans man?

https://www.thepinknews.com/2023/04/28/gay-trans-men-tipping-point/

I can't quite believe I have to say this, but gay men are attracted to male bodies. They aren't interested in female-bodied people with masculine affect.

Gay male sexuality is its own very distinct thing, and women who think they can identify into that world should take a moment to think about "lesbian" porn that's produced for the titillation of straight men and has basically nothing to do with actual lesbian sexuality.

If you're telling me lots of gay men are sexually interested in transmen, you're telling me you don't know any gay men.

Sure because an article by one TM that gets to hook up with gay men proves that they're all fine with it 🙄 And in Pink News, well, I'm shocked

I'm not a mum ( not that should should make any difference) nor 'chatting shit' (are you 14?)The majority of my male friends are gay men and they are very open about their practices and preferences. And these do not include vagina or bio women who attempt look/act like gay men. They're all LGB without the T.

Of course they will be some men who say they are gay but hook up with women. Just like there are some men that claim to be hetero but have had encounters with gay men or trans .
They should just call themselves pan or queer and get on with it.

I doubt you'll convince anyone gay men are happily accepting trans men into their dating pool now.

Straight men are not routinely hooking up with Trans identifying males, lesbians are not routinely hooking up with trans identifying males. And likewise, most straight women and gay men are not dating TIMS.

Random articles like the above aren't going to convince me, and definitely not gay men, but nice try.

Pmsl at your idea that gay men don't typically have a tonne of female friends! Yes even -shudder- mothers! Some gay men even raise families of their own!

But, I urge you to share away with your article.

Because I'm pretty sick of the hypocrisy of "TERF between the sheets, TRA in the tweets" (I know Not All Gay Men Are Like That, some are great feminist allies).

Not really surprised that Pink News would lean into the "you know gay men, we'll shag anything" stereotype, but I'd suggest there are two possibilities here:

• When the transman says "lots of gay men want to shag me", PN is omitting the second half where she says "you wouldn't know them, they go to a different school."
• There is a definite thing of transmen who identify as gay men hooking up with other transmen who identify as gay men. We used to call them "lesbians", but we're not supposed to do that now. What's even weirder is the subculture of straight women who are heavily into Japanese yaoi porn, who also call themselves gay men and pop up sometimes on Reddit complaining that their straight boyfriends won't accept that they are in a "queer" relationship. None of this involves gay men (old definition).

At this point I wish there was a terminology for penis people who are attracted to other penis people, who have a sexuality that doesn't involve vagina people.

And the straight women who think they're gay men might find life is easier if they realise that lots of straight men really like tomboyish women.

PMSL at a pile of women, mostly mums, chatting shite about what gay men like.

You know nothing about our lives on here. Your misogynistic jibe applies to women whatever their gender identity.

Transmen have always been welcome in women’s spaces because as everybody knows, biological sex doesn’t change. Many transmen use their womanly biology (which you believe causes humans to ‘chat shite’ ) to have babies. Transmen are the mums that you patronise (helpfully confirmed by Freddy McConnell’s legal case). Your misogyny and presumption about other people’s lives is really offensive.

The article (with its broken link) also backs up the points made by several posters on here. It shows the need for the letter from the LGB Alliance in the OP:

‘It’s unsurprising then, that this transf*g tipping point seems to be coinciding with a rise in gender critical gay men.
As queer trans men and trans mascs edge ever more into the spotlight, we’ll need more solidarity from the cis gays who see our shared gay identity and struggle.’

Sorry to hear you pissed yourself though. There’s other areas on this very site with lots of advice and support tips on what you can do about that.

Apologies ChessorBuckaroo, I should have added ‘…if they are relevant to your personal biology’ at the end of that post.
And I had meant to describe MN as ‘very helpful’ not just ‘very’

I can't quite believe I have to say this, but gay men are attracted to male bodies.

And it's really important to keep saying this, not just because it's an objective truth, which it is, but it's politically essential. Gay men spent decades fighting for same-sex attraction to be recognised as a right in law and acceptable in society. We're not very far from the days when sexual activity between men could result in a prison sentence, and even for much of my lifetime the age of consent for gay men was 21.

The idea that homosexuality should be redefined to include attraction to women "identifying" as men, or that gay men should feel obliged to consider women identifying as men as sexual partners, is morally abhorrent. In political terms, it takes us back to a time when same-sex attraction was considered socially beyond the pale. We must fight it as hard as we possibly can.

PMSL at a pile of women, mostly mums, chatting shite about what gay men like.

From a poster who thinks women can be gay men.

So:
"No-one's ever really fully accepted me," she tells BBC Newsbeat.
"I thought it would get easier once I'd had my surgery.
"Unfortunately, it was not any easier. There's still this stigma and this embarrassment of dating someone who's transitioned."

no, pet , it’s nothing to do with stigma or embarrassment, it’s to do with hard biological fact. ‘Straight’ men don’t fancy blokes who have cut bits off themselves to ‘pass’ as women. If they fancied you, they would put up with the stigma, because if enough men say it’s socially acceptable, the stigma vanish es and it becomes a societal norm. That it hasn’t, means that at the deep reality level means there is no male demand for the ‘acceptability ‘ of dating transwomen. So it doesn’t happen.

BTW, if you were really up for ‘acceptance’ in day to day life, try dressing as a woman , not a porn ‘star’. You know, jeans, unfussy top, harassed expression, enormous hand bag containing the necessities of life for you and everyone else in your family/ social circle.

My son is a gay man. He always said he wouldn't date a transman as they are female. He told me yesterday his new boyfriend is a transman. We did have a discussion about whether that means he isn't gay anymore and he said he's not sure. He just knows he likes this person. And that's ok.

Now I'd personally say he isn't technically gay. But he's still young and figuring it out. As long as the trans person is honest and upfront about being trans, and anyone who doesn't want to date a trans person isn't accused of transphobia then all ok. The issue I have with IKAB is that whoever the transman was paired with didn't know before the kiss. And that seems unfair.

Also wasn't I Kissed A Girl the first one? So why have we got series 2 of the boys before the girls? Or have I missed a series /misremembered?

I spotted I Kissed a Girl on the telly the other evening.

Purely in the interests of contributing to this discussion 😏I observed the contestants closely (thanks but no thanks, though I loved the baby-dyke style of Fiorenza, 22, from Glasgow, I thought it had gone out of fashion, but obviously not, and she rocks it ) and I think all the lesbians were actually women.
There may be a shock revelation in Episode Umpteen of course, sadly anything is possible, as I Kissed a Boy has demonstrated.

I just wanted to say how sad I feel for the young TM. That photo of them with their arm across their bare chest, holding a water bottle, completely alone made me want to go get them and give them a love. I think they have been used dreadfully by the bbc whatever the agenda is, they have been used to prove something, exposed to all sorts of media attention and I bet no one is going to be there for them in a year or so when all the appearances and fuss stop. Gay men want to have sex with men. If I was dressed as a man they wouldn’t want me because I am a woman even if they had an initial attraction to me as a male as soon as my femaleness became apparent it would be game over.

I can't imagine any young man would want his mother to ask this question but the big question is not "does he like the transman" it's "do you have great sex with the transman"? He can ignore that for a while but not forever.

A lot of nice young people don't want to admit that they can like someone and even fancy them up to a point but when the clothes come off they have to force an interest.

Other than reminding him that pregnancy is a risk, I don't want to ask him that any more than he'd want to answer. And relationships are about more than sex, so it might be less important to him than someone else.
It's all so tricky though. I don't think he's gay if his partner is female. But I'm also not going to fall out with him over terminology. He knows I'm here to talk if he wants/needs to.

relationships are about more than sex, so it might be less important to him than someone else.

Relationships are about more than sex but that doesn't make sex unimportant. It's like buying a coat that doesn't quite fit because you like the cut and colour, you're going to stop wearing it. If he was having a relationship with a girl you wouldn't just think "maybe sex isn't that important to him" would you?

But as you rightly say he's still figuring himself out, and anyway that's not a conversation we can have with our sons 😊

As a lesbian who watched IKAG with her housemates last year (mostly straight, bar one gay man - mixture of men and women), I found it incredibly refreshing to see lesbian relationships on television, especially with a cast that was relatively diverse and wasn't just conventionally attractive femme women. It opened a lot of conversation about my own experiences as a lesbian and whether the show reflected it, and the issues they talked about (I loved the episode where they talked about embracing the word lesbian because it's not a dirty word and why the L is first). No other show specifically about lesbians has taken in so many people (trash TV has no limits, I suppose) and encouraged discussion with people. I had been pleasantly surprised that the show had been about homosexuality and not pushing an agenda of TWAW.

I didn't watch the previous series of IKAB in full, but I do seem to remember the last season being slightly more diverse, but I could be wrong. I started watching this season after one of my friends encouraged me to. I got as far as the introduction to the TM and paused the episode to come here. Honestly, it is such a shame, homosexual representation is already so limited.

As an aside, will gay men accept this? I had a fascinating conversation with a gay male friend a few weeks ago where he said this to me (discussing a previous relationship I had with a TM who has pre medical transition but had socially transitioned and that people began to say "but I thought you were gay, does this mean you're in a straight relationship now?") “Anyone who tried to tell you that you were not a lesbian for experiencing sexual/romantic attraction to someone who was biologically female, when you are biologically female, was trying to gaslight you, and that’s disgusting and inexcusable. I hope none of these people are still in your life". With genuine anger on my behalf. He also added later, "You are a biological woman, attracted to other biological women. You are not attracted to biological men. It is just the way you are, and there is nothing wrong with that. I am a biological man, attracted to exclusively biological men, and that's ok. Like I said, anyone who tries to tell you there is (something wrong with that) is trying to gaslight you or is very stupid "

He also talked about how overrun the TRA movement is with AGP, and how awful it was that pride has become overrun with kinks and furries, and how it was setting gay people back.

It's the first conversation I've ever had with someone my age where they've been so vocal about defending SSA people, and the first time a gay man has been so vocal in defence of lesbians. I know it can't speak for everyone, but it was a definite tone shift from previous experiences. Whichever PP said they think this will peak people, I think is right.

Yes I agree, sex is important. Well it is to me. I had an ex who hated it. Anyway, he seems happy right now. The relationship has developed over the last few months, time will tell where it leads. I really miss having toddlers. Parenting teens/adults is a minefield.

Wow an article by a FTM transsexual going to an event for men to hook-up with FTMs and then stating how all men love them.

It's no different to going to a Dr. Who convention and then saying everyone loves Dr Who, because an event with a group of people with a common interest is somehow representative of the entire population.

PMSL at a pile of women, mostly mums, chatting shite about what gay men like.

You know mums can be gay, right? What a silly comment to assume all gay people are young and childless.

Also many of us have gay children, relatives, or friends so this affects more people than just you. Sorry if that bothers you.

"I’d say it’s really unfair on the TM too because the men in the show are not going to want to date that person"

I don’t think it’s unfair on Lars at all - I think putting social pressure on gay people to date opposite-sex trans people is the most effective way to get dates, so what better way to pile on the social pressure than to go on a TV show where no-one can say anything about the fact you’re female and you can finally pretend you’re a gay man without pesky reality getting in the way.

I've watched the 4 episodes of Series 2 on catch-up. The contestants on the first show seem more conventionally good looking than in Series 2. Lars was originally paired with Jack and came out as trans immediately to everyone. I think they said they have only had top surgery but I may have heard wrong because they later said they could "top". I wasn't sure if that coming out as trans was 100% voluntary or because sex by deception is a criminal offence - anyway I'm really glad to say that there is no deception at all which was one of the things I was worried about. I do think the problem is the title which includes "boy" and also it claiming to be a gay show. It should say it is Queer.

Jack and Lars seemed to get on OK initially but then Jack has said he "isn't feeling it" and moved on to try things out with another of the contestants. There is lots of this amongst the matched pairs so nothing unusual in that for either Lars or Jack. Ruben then made a move to pair up with Lars, but with Ruben's already roving eye I wonder how long that will last. These guys move fast and the elimination rounds give an incentive to form strategic alliances...

I don't know if I am over-associating but having worked in a male dominated environment for years, it looked to me like everyone is being very polite and accepting Lars as a member of the group which is nice. But the question is whether they are 100% accepted - I remember when all my workmates were totally happy that we all went to the pub after work but it really smarted when they all went on holiday without me one summer! I doubt we will get any of those insights but some of the group chat scenes just remind me too much of my own historic situation - awkward! So I am feeling a bit sorry for Lars being potentially "othered" even in the most gentle way.

There was one group moment where Lars was briefly centre of attention and did talk a bit about transition and how affirming care had saved them. There was a slightly pause because noone else has had that experience and while they all made positive noises, there isn't a lot they can say. Then quite quickly another contestant made a revelation about having AIDS so the limelight quickly shifted and that was that. Other than Lars & Ruben's budding relationship they aren't getting a lot of camera time - drama elsewhere seems more exciting. I reckon Lars will definitely be kept in for next episode's "kiss off" but who knows what will happen after that?

I really don't know what to make of it all because of course there is huge pressure on the men to keep quiet. I do hope that Lars does find someone - whether on this show or elsewhere - but I am finding the odd-one-out dynamic awkward to watch. I can't decide whether it is homophobic to have a gay show with a trans man in it, or transphobic because having only one trans person puts Lars under undue scrutiny. Has anyone else been following it? What do you think?

I’ve watched the episodes so far - I loved the first two series.

I agree that this isn’t the right forum for a trans man, and I think that LBG alliance letter is good.

However, if the bbc had decided to have a trans man I think it’s been done reasonably well. Lars was honest from really early on, and I think that it’s pretty clear from his initial date’s unsurprised reaction and the very scripted looking scene that he already knew he had been paired with someone trans. Although Lars passes reasonably well, literally no one was suprised so it must have been obvious in real life.

Its been interesting watching the series progress, as Lars has got more comfortable with the boys, his behaviour has got noticeably more female I think. And the fact he’s biologically female is much much more noticeable now that he’s paired with Ruben who is taller / more masculine looking.

Jo Bartosch has written about this in the Critic

https://thecritic.co.uk/a-straight-woman-cannot-be-a-gay-man/

I've not watched any of these series, I don't have anything to add except I'm glad it was a tm with the men and not a tw with the women although it, imo, shouldn't have been either and the BBC should be ashamed.