Page 17 | Greens internal drama warms up

fromorbit · 2025-05-05T14:43:08+00:00

New long article looking at the drama inside the Greens over biology suddenly existing again despite their best efforts. *How the Green Party forgot the environment and was torn apart by trans rows* ^It was a party united by a single mission – to save the planet. But now the gender identity debate has left it divided and in chaos^ [[https://archive.is/TOlNx https://archive.is/TOlNx]] The article is already out of date as Zack Polanski of hypnotic breasts fame has just launched a leadership bid against Deyner and Ramsey. *Emma Bateman* ^It's no secret that big boobs Polanski wants the top job. He is a student politics slogan churner, a self server who distains women and wants misgendering misdemeanours to be grounds for expulsion from the Greens.^ ^He is "LGB with the T"^ ^Still NO DEBATE!^ Pro-women Greens article on his background:; [[https://concernedgreens.uk/watchlist/zack-polanski https://concernedgreens.uk/watchlist/zack-polanski/]] The existence of biology is likely to be a significant part of the leadership contest for sure so interesting to watch . Ali Shahrar has launched another legal challenge against the Greens. Gardening needed. May 27th is the date for Emma Bateman's legal hearing against the Greens. ^On May 27th I am in court against Green Party in a case which will expose the contorted lengths the Greens go to in order to shut women up. ^ It isn't going to go well for the Greens given the Supreme Court ruling. This could be key moment in seeing the ruling's effect on politics and directly impact the leadership contest. It will also be probably be infuriating and hilarious in equal measure.

Shortshriftandlethal · 30/09/2025 09:47

Lalgarh · 30/09/2025 09:41

By the way there is a profile of new leader Zack Polanski in the most recent issue of Private Eye.

Mainly on his time as a Lib dem. And his ability to convince groups with polar opposite views that he was completely Their Man, not realising he'd told everyone that. Whoever said that his hypnosis experience shouldn't be dismissed is definitely on to something

Isn't that the thing, though, with people who have the charm and skill to get everyone on board. Once elected they cannot possibly deliver. See Kier Starmer and Nigel Farage as other such coalition builders who promise to be all things to all people

Lalgarh · 30/09/2025 10:40

I honestly don't think Farage is a coalition builder, judging by his ability to split every party he's ended up leading. It's more his way or the highway.

Corbyn is supposed to be a coalition builder, or would like to think of himself as such. Though how he'll manage the Sultana faction is another matter

SionnachRuadh · 30/09/2025 11:05

Corbyn is a good figurehead for a coalition because he's a bit of a jelly. But I don't know how good he is at reconciling factions that can't be reconciled. Sultana in particular seems to think that you can't be in the party unless you're fully on board with her.

Farage is more complicated. There's a whole mythology on the right that says he can't work in a team and he knifes anyone who looks like they might outshine him. But if you look at the people he's fallen out with - Godfrey Bloom, Gerard Batten, Ben Habib, Rupert Lowe - these are all loose cannons at best. Ben and Rupert, who are supposed to be big mates, can't even work with each other and launched their political vanity projects on the same day.

But there are lots of people who've worked well with him for many years, and people he's had rows with and reconciled with. To seriously fall out with Farage, you have to be in the "we gave you multiple chances to prove you're not an idiot but you couldn't help yourself" category.

That mythology is popular in Tory circles, but a lot of it comes from Carl Benjamin, who's still in a huff because he's not allowed to join Reform, and Carl's circle, who form this weird crossover point between Tories who hate Farage because he's a populist and far rightists who hate Farage because he isn't a racist.

Shortshriftandlethal · 30/09/2025 13:00

Lalgarh · 30/09/2025 10:40

I honestly don't think Farage is a coalition builder, judging by his ability to split every party he's ended up leading. It's more his way or the highway.

Corbyn is supposed to be a coalition builder, or would like to think of himself as such. Though how he'll manage the Sultana faction is another matter

With Farage, as with Starmer, though, he has said what he thinks will appeal to some very diverse demographics...that range from right wing Tory Brexiteers to ex pitmen in the North East. He has created quite a contradictory, rag tag collection of policies.

borntobequiet · 01/10/2025 08:00

I think Farage is a racist, though he may be selectively racist. I base this on an unguarded moment in a radio interview when he described Obama as “disgusting”, and his voice did indeed ooze naked disgust and contempt. It was quite startling - I’ve never heard anything like it in tone from a (British) English speaking person.

SionnachRuadh · 01/10/2025 08:28

I don't have the power to look into Farage's soul, but if you ever see him give a speech or do a press conference, you'll notice that he's almost invariably got this brown man beside him. That's Zia Yusuf, one of his closest collaborators and as things stand his most likely successor.

There are actual racists out there who make it a key part of their politics. They all hate Farage. One of the tells is that they never stop banging on about him having a Muslim as a key member of his team.

Original poster

fromorbit · 01/10/2025 08:50

Another Polanski interview I am afraid a lot of us here have been doing bad gender critical stuff and have been "caught up in these conversations". How did that happen? Meanwhile apparently violence against women is a REAL THING. What who knew? Who has been covering up VAWG ? Luckily Zack is here to tell us how to make things better. Anyway there is a lot of crazy:

Zack Polanski: ‘It’s time for a party to stand in unconditional solidarity with our LGBT community’
https://archive.is/AsxEX#

So I think the first thing we need to do is to notice that, to call it out. That’s not to say that someone who is gender critical or someone who is worried about women’s rights should be dismissed or not included in a conversation. We need to separate the people who are fueling these narratives, the politicians who should and do know better, who are allowing themselves to be fueled by these narratives, to the largely women, but some men, who have been caught up in these conversations. I do think where we can, we do have to keep talking to people, it’s important that we don’t say we absolutely won’t listen.

It’s also important that trans people are at the table. Now trans people can’t do all the work and particularly if they feel like they don’t have the energy for it. That’s a particularly valid position and then it’s important to show our allyship but it’s really important – and I’m aware I’m saying this is someone who’s not trans – that ultimately trans people’s opinions are centered in this conversation. I’m always aware of what Graham Norton said a few years ago: where as a gay man he’s always asked about [trans rights] but [he said] ‘where are the trans people having these conversations?’
In terms of people who are concerned or scared, I think it’s important that we point out that violence against women and girls is a very real thing. Women not being able to get a gynecology appointment is a very real thing. The gender pay gap is a very real thing. But these are not the problems or caused by trans women. These are largely caused by cis men.

OP posts:

NasturtiumsAreUnderrated · 01/10/2025 08:54

@SionnachRuadh I have no insight into whether or not Farage is racist (although I do think he's a xenophobe), but having a brown Muslim in his inner circle doesn't mean he isn't. It's classic that people with a prejudice against a particular group make exceptions for particular individuals they know well: prolonged, reasonably intimate interaction with someone makes you seem them as a person, rather than an almost abstract member of a group. To Farage, Yusuf isn't a brown Muslim, he's Zia, a close, long-term colleague and collaborator in a shared passion project.

You see this all the time. Sexist blokes who'll happily deride the analytical abilities of women in front of a close female colleague whose analytical expertise they acknowledge. It's as if their minds operate a logical fallacy: she's better at this male skill than me, therefore she's not really a woman in this sense. No need to adjust the faulty belief system. Most people can accommodate a remarkably large number of exceptions without feeling any need to re-examine their faulty belief!

Ereshkigalangcleg · 01/10/2025 09:00

fromorbit · 01/10/2025 08:50

Another Polanski interview I am afraid a lot of us here have been doing bad gender critical stuff and have been "caught up in these conversations". How did that happen? Meanwhile apparently violence against women is a REAL THING. What who knew? Who has been covering up VAWG ? Luckily Zack is here to tell us how to make things better. Anyway there is a lot of crazy:

Zack Polanski: ‘It’s time for a party to stand in unconditional solidarity with our LGBT community’
https://archive.is/AsxEX#

So I think the first thing we need to do is to notice that, to call it out. That’s not to say that someone who is gender critical or someone who is worried about women’s rights should be dismissed or not included in a conversation. We need to separate the people who are fueling these narratives, the politicians who should and do know better, who are allowing themselves to be fueled by these narratives, to the largely women, but some men, who have been caught up in these conversations. I do think where we can, we do have to keep talking to people, it’s important that we don’t say we absolutely won’t listen.

It’s also important that trans people are at the table. Now trans people can’t do all the work and particularly if they feel like they don’t have the energy for it. That’s a particularly valid position and then it’s important to show our allyship but it’s really important – and I’m aware I’m saying this is someone who’s not trans – that ultimately trans people’s opinions are centered in this conversation. I’m always aware of what Graham Norton said a few years ago: where as a gay man he’s always asked about [trans rights] but [he said] ‘where are the trans people having these conversations?’
In terms of people who are concerned or scared, I think it’s important that we point out that violence against women and girls is a very real thing. Women not being able to get a gynecology appointment is a very real thing. The gender pay gap is a very real thing. But these are not the problems or caused by trans women. These are largely caused by cis men.

Haha what a dick he is.

SionnachRuadh · 01/10/2025 09:18

NasturtiumsAreUnderrated · 01/10/2025 08:54

@SionnachRuadh I have no insight into whether or not Farage is racist (although I do think he's a xenophobe), but having a brown Muslim in his inner circle doesn't mean he isn't. It's classic that people with a prejudice against a particular group make exceptions for particular individuals they know well: prolonged, reasonably intimate interaction with someone makes you seem them as a person, rather than an almost abstract member of a group. To Farage, Yusuf isn't a brown Muslim, he's Zia, a close, long-term colleague and collaborator in a shared passion project.

You see this all the time. Sexist blokes who'll happily deride the analytical abilities of women in front of a close female colleague whose analytical expertise they acknowledge. It's as if their minds operate a logical fallacy: she's better at this male skill than me, therefore she's not really a woman in this sense. No need to adjust the faulty belief system. Most people can accommodate a remarkably large number of exceptions without feeling any need to re-examine their faulty belief!

Again, I'm not Farage's biographer and he can speak for himself, but I am aware that in the UKIP days he spent years in factional battles with the Gerard Batten types who wanted to team up with Tommy Robinson and become a niche anti-Islam party. He always opposed that. So that's one thing.

And you may not pay attention to the Online Right, the types who congregate around the Lotus Eaters podcast, but they are constantly banging on about Muhammad Ziauddin Yusuf, the sinister Muslim svengali who pulls Nigel's strings. He's explicitly called out these characters. So that's another thing.

A more interesting test for your theory might be Jeremy Corbyn. He's got Jewish friends like Tony Greenstein, albeit they're eccentric people who are wholly alienated from the mainstream Jewish community. And Corbyn sometimes waxes lyrical about the historic pre-1939 Jewish community that was left-wing and anti-Zionist - the good Jews, you understand, it's only the present day Jewish community that's let him down.

There's a strong tendency to give people on the left the benefit of the doubt, because they're assumed to have good intentions. I stopped being able to believe in that delusion a long time ago.

ArabellaScott · 01/10/2025 09:18

largely women

How very dare he. I'm big boned.

NasturtiumsAreUnderrated · 01/10/2025 09:28

@ArabellaScott I rather envy you your big bones! As I enter my fifties I'm trying to come to terms with the need to start lifting heavy weights to preserve my bone health. Not my idea of fun.

WhatterySquash · 01/10/2025 09:33

NasturtiumsAreUnderrated · 01/10/2025 08:54

@SionnachRuadh I have no insight into whether or not Farage is racist (although I do think he's a xenophobe), but having a brown Muslim in his inner circle doesn't mean he isn't. It's classic that people with a prejudice against a particular group make exceptions for particular individuals they know well: prolonged, reasonably intimate interaction with someone makes you seem them as a person, rather than an almost abstract member of a group. To Farage, Yusuf isn't a brown Muslim, he's Zia, a close, long-term colleague and collaborator in a shared passion project.

You see this all the time. Sexist blokes who'll happily deride the analytical abilities of women in front of a close female colleague whose analytical expertise they acknowledge. It's as if their minds operate a logical fallacy: she's better at this male skill than me, therefore she's not really a woman in this sense. No need to adjust the faulty belief system. Most people can accommodate a remarkably large number of exceptions without feeling any need to re-examine their faulty belief!

Yes I remember Oprah Winfrey talking about her neighbour moaning about black people, and she pointed out she was black. Neighbour said “you’re not black, you’re my neighbour!” OW had to have an argument with neighbour about the fact she was actually black!

ArabellaScott · 01/10/2025 09:52

NasturtiumsAreUnderrated · 01/10/2025 09:28

@ArabellaScott I rather envy you your big bones! As I enter my fifties I'm trying to come to terms with the need to start lifting heavy weights to preserve my bone health. Not my idea of fun.

No, it's shite. I am not at all happy about all of this ageing stuff. Planning to write a letter.

lcakethereforeIam · 01/10/2025 10:51

The Boobwhisperer, what a dick! If anything demonstrates twam

Now trans people can’t do all the work and particularly if they feel like they don’t have the energy for it.

No, far easier to let women do the work.

Hellohelga · 01/10/2025 10:55

ZP is outraged by those who deny climate science while himself denying biological science.

finallygettingit · 01/10/2025 10:55

yeah
so fucking patronising
and where have feminists blamed trans people for gynaecology waiting lists?
there's plenty to actually blame transactivism for after all
but I guess he is addressing people who will just think 'of course, its not the fault of those poor transwomen, feminists and their sloppy thinking eh'

SionnachRuadh · 01/10/2025 11:09

He's doing his hypnotism thing.

"You are feeling very relaxed... now let's talk about this issue that concerns you... let's reframe your worry so you can see that it isn't a real problem at all..."

And if you strip away the slightly creepy therapy-speak, it boils down to one of the political left's major problems, the theory of false consciousness. The idea that political ideologues know what people's true interests are, while the people themselves have false beliefs, or maybe are led astray by disinformation if that daft woman at BBC Verify feels like weighing in.

Labour politicians do this all the time. They insist that voters' concerns are not really voters' concerns, they've just been bamboozled by the Daily Mail, and the way to deal with voters' concerns is to double down on all the unpopular stuff they're already doing. Keir Starmer is a perfect example of this - he doesn't know how to do anything except narrative management, and he doesn't even know how to do that.

Lalgarh · 01/10/2025 11:18

Hellohelga · 01/10/2025 10:55

ZP is outraged by those who deny climate science while himself denying biological science.

This is the sort of thing that will be picked up on, and it's not going to help arguments for action on climate change

Zack Polanski: ‘It’s time for a party to stand in unconditional solidarity with our LGBT community’

So he's just casually erasing Queer Intersex Asexual and probably (checks) 2 spirit communities is he? #silenceisviolence

SlackJawedDisbeliefXY · 01/10/2025 12:25

In terms of people who are concerned or scared, I think it’s important that we point out that violence against women and girls is a very real thing.
Women not being able to get a gynecology appointment is a very real thing.
The gender pay gap is a very real thing.

Great insight pointing these out, had not realised

But these are not the problems or caused by trans women.

Eh? Announcing a trans identity is a get out of jail card for any man that choses to claim it?

These are largely caused by cis men

I like the use of largely - don't want to alienate half your audience, let them believe that they are the virtuous ones

Also, the only way to define 'cis' is a sort of circular negation - it is the set of men minus the set of men who don't like to be called men.

The use of 'cis' is a litmus test for whether people have swallowed the GI religion. It means precisely nothing other than a marker that the rest of what the user is spouting is very likely also BS.

No wonder people have so little faith or respect for politicians

IllustratedDictionaryOfTheDoldrums · 01/10/2025 13:06

fromorbit · 01/10/2025 08:50

Another Polanski interview I am afraid a lot of us here have been doing bad gender critical stuff and have been "caught up in these conversations". How did that happen? Meanwhile apparently violence against women is a REAL THING. What who knew? Who has been covering up VAWG ? Luckily Zack is here to tell us how to make things better. Anyway there is a lot of crazy:

Zack Polanski: ‘It’s time for a party to stand in unconditional solidarity with our LGBT community’
https://archive.is/AsxEX#

So I think the first thing we need to do is to notice that, to call it out. That’s not to say that someone who is gender critical or someone who is worried about women’s rights should be dismissed or not included in a conversation. We need to separate the people who are fueling these narratives, the politicians who should and do know better, who are allowing themselves to be fueled by these narratives, to the largely women, but some men, who have been caught up in these conversations. I do think where we can, we do have to keep talking to people, it’s important that we don’t say we absolutely won’t listen.

It’s also important that trans people are at the table. Now trans people can’t do all the work and particularly if they feel like they don’t have the energy for it. That’s a particularly valid position and then it’s important to show our allyship but it’s really important – and I’m aware I’m saying this is someone who’s not trans – that ultimately trans people’s opinions are centered in this conversation. I’m always aware of what Graham Norton said a few years ago: where as a gay man he’s always asked about [trans rights] but [he said] ‘where are the trans people having these conversations?’
In terms of people who are concerned or scared, I think it’s important that we point out that violence against women and girls is a very real thing. Women not being able to get a gynecology appointment is a very real thing. The gender pay gap is a very real thing. But these are not the problems or caused by trans women. These are largely caused by cis men.

Fuck me but thats patronising from Zack.

MurkyWeather2 · 01/10/2025 13:20

There's a strong tendency to give people on the left the benefit of the doubt, because they're assumed to have good intentions. I stopped being able to believe in that delusion a long time ago.

Amen to that.

Also, there's a strong tendency to never give people on the right the benefit of the doubt, because they are assumed to have evil intentions. I no longer believe in that delusion either.

Lalgarh · 01/10/2025 13:21

"That’s not to say that someone who is gender critical or someone who is worried about women’s rights should be dismissed or not included in a conversation."

Isn't that enough to have got Your Party Gaza independent MPs into trouble?

Lalgarh · 01/10/2025 13:36

NasturtiumsAreUnderrated · 01/10/2025 08:54

@SionnachRuadh I have no insight into whether or not Farage is racist (although I do think he's a xenophobe), but having a brown Muslim in his inner circle doesn't mean he isn't. It's classic that people with a prejudice against a particular group make exceptions for particular individuals they know well: prolonged, reasonably intimate interaction with someone makes you seem them as a person, rather than an almost abstract member of a group. To Farage, Yusuf isn't a brown Muslim, he's Zia, a close, long-term colleague and collaborator in a shared passion project.

You see this all the time. Sexist blokes who'll happily deride the analytical abilities of women in front of a close female colleague whose analytical expertise they acknowledge. It's as if their minds operate a logical fallacy: she's better at this male skill than me, therefore she's not really a woman in this sense. No need to adjust the faulty belief system. Most people can accommodate a remarkably large number of exceptions without feeling any need to re-examine their faulty belief!

A while back I used to follow Shahmir Sanni, the Brexit whistleblower on social media

(https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/mar/24/brexit-whistleblower-shahmir-sanni-interview-vote-leave-cambridge-analytica). Not sure what's happened to him but he even claimed Farage was like a father to him at one point. Even though there have been accounts of Farage using racist slurs in private (ie white) company.

Zia Yusuf even walked out citing the racism he was facing from other Reform Base support (didn't mention Farage directly ). I'm not quite sure what it is that persuaded him to return this year

SionnachRuadh · 01/10/2025 16:38

I'm not a Reform insider but I hear from people who are. Zia from all accounts is hugely popular with the party membership. Many councillors credit him for getting them elected. If Nigel is the figurehead, Zia is the guy who's respected for putting in place a professional operation.

The whole thing about his resignation and reinstatement is a bit opaque, but as far as I can tell he was burned out from the hours he'd put in over the previous year, and he'd also been worn down by the torrent of racist abuse he was getting on X. I wouldn't exactly say that was from the Reform base - it was from the Online Right types who've long hated Farage, and Zia was a lightning rod for them. It was Farage who persuaded him to return.

Very few of the Online Right were even members, and they all seem to have congregated around Rupert Lowe in the hope that he was going to start up a far right party in alliance with Tommy, and with funding from Musk. I don't like Lowe, but he shows no sign of doing any of that. He seems to be quite happy being an independent constituency MP, and left to his own devices will probably rejoin the Tories. Any signals to the contrary come from the guy he's hired to run his social media, who is chummy with the Lotus Eaters gang.