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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Trans former judge to take government to ECHR

475 replies

CervixSampler · 29/04/2025 09:58

Trans former judge is taking the government to the European Court of Human Rights over SC ruling

OP posts:
Thread gallery
23
Kinsters · 29/04/2025 11:18

senua · 29/04/2025 11:11

McCloud is excellent as a judge and I think if anyone can challenge this, she will.
I admit that I had never heard of the transformer before this morning and wondered how you end up being a 'former judge' at the age of only 55, so I googled. Maya has an article.

This is exactly what I think is needed. Someone articulate and intelligent able to present the transgender argument from the transgender point of view effectively and as coherently as possible. Ultimately I think some concessions are needed for post-op transsexuals.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 29/04/2025 11:18

Kinsters · 29/04/2025 11:18

This is exactly what I think is needed. Someone articulate and intelligent able to present the transgender argument from the transgender point of view effectively and as coherently as possible. Ultimately I think some concessions are needed for post-op transsexuals.

What concessions do you have in mind?

Chersfrozenface · 29/04/2025 11:19

WateryBottle · 29/04/2025 11:06

have I misunderstood this- the ECHR has nothing to do with labour? Or do you mean they’d ignore any ruling the ECHR made?

There may be some confusion between the UK Equality and Human Rights Commission (EHRC) and the European Court of Human Rights (ECtHR or ECHR) which deals with the European Convention on Human Rights (ECHR).

Aizen · 29/04/2025 11:19

MarieDeGournay · 29/04/2025 10:53

Oh no.
Guess where I live??😕

Me too..... 😊

Kinsters · 29/04/2025 11:22

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 29/04/2025 11:18

What concessions do you have in mind?

Not for me to speak for everyone but I would personally not think it unreasonable for long time post op transsexuals like McCloud to use female facilities. Of course there are massive problems with this - how to police it, who is entitled to surgery, who pays for the surgery.

teawamutu · 29/04/2025 11:22

Kinsters · 29/04/2025 11:18

This is exactly what I think is needed. Someone articulate and intelligent able to present the transgender argument from the transgender point of view effectively and as coherently as possible. Ultimately I think some concessions are needed for post-op transsexuals.

Women are not men with bits chopped off. 'Woman' is not a category where you add up points until you get the badge.

What did you have in mind?

Chersfrozenface · 29/04/2025 11:23

Kinsters · 29/04/2025 11:18

This is exactly what I think is needed. Someone articulate and intelligent able to present the transgender argument from the transgender point of view effectively and as coherently as possible. Ultimately I think some concessions are needed for post-op transsexuals.

Concessions conditional on having specified surgical, hormonal and/or other procedures and treatments really couldn't be legislated for.

theilltemperedqueenofspacetime · 29/04/2025 11:23

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 29/04/2025 11:18

What concessions do you have in mind?

Genital inspections 😈

teawamutu · 29/04/2025 11:24

Kinsters · 29/04/2025 11:22

Not for me to speak for everyone but I would personally not think it unreasonable for long time post op transsexuals like McCloud to use female facilities. Of course there are massive problems with this - how to police it, who is entitled to surgery, who pays for the surgery.

Cross posted.

This is akin to saying that the person who stole your car years ago is entitled to expect you to give them a lift to work, now that they can't drive themselves.

No. They can get the bus or walk. They don't get to make it your problem.

TangenitalContrivance · 29/04/2025 11:24

WateryBottle · 29/04/2025 11:06

have I misunderstood this- the ECHR has nothing to do with labour? Or do you mean they’d ignore any ruling the ECHR made?

Labour allowing the ECHR to over rule them on this issue would be political suicide, I mean.

maltravers · 29/04/2025 11:27

I note the use of the word “plans” in that title. I’m sure JM will be falling over himself to join forces however.

Keeptoiletssafe · 29/04/2025 11:28

Dr McCloud believes dangerous predators could exploit this confusion to further target women.
"This is going to make matters much, much more dangerous," she said. "I am now expected to use male spaces.
"I have female anatomy. It isn't safe for women to use the men's loos. It is as simple as that."’

It’s not safe for women to have men in women’s loos.

I can argue it’s not safe for men to have women in men’s loos.

I know a man of roughly the same age as McCloud. He had a stroke, at home, on his own. His wife was out shopping and found him semi conscious and incoherent on the bathroom floor. He can’t remember how he got there but it’s where people instinctively go when they are ill (first thing I thought of when the poor wife of Gene Hackman died - I could guess the scenario, having researched toilet safety).

In the U.K., there is a person having a heart attack every 5 mins on average. There is a person having a stroke every 5 minutes on average. Signs beforehand may be feeling nauseous or if you want to poo. The strain of elimination can cause problems in itself which is a reason why so many people die on the loo.

As soon as toilet rooms/ cubicles are mixed sex the regulations make them enclosed. You also have a regulation to be able to open a toilet door/ room from the outside because a body gets in the way of opening the door.

So single sex toilets are safer because their designs can include door gaps so you can be seen if collapsed and rescued in time.

What has been happening is these door gaps has been disappearing over the last few years in design. I believe in part it is because the societal boundaries of who goes into the toilets has been blurred and people can’t speak out. It’s also because of the rise of unisex toilets. And cameras and male voyeurs. So privacy has become more important than safety.

McCloud needs to think about safety of everyone. The really vulnerable can include any of us at that critical moment when we need to be seen to be saved.

If he starts quoting any toilets statistics he needs to qualify that with what type of design it was. Women do get attacked in toilets. He needs to look at what the design of the toilets was. Because the design, the privacy and who is ‘allowed’ inside the cubicle/room needs to be taken into account. Privacy is not always conducive to safety in all sorts of scenarios. Criminals don’t like witnesses.

Again, single sex toilets with door gaps for visibility - for prevention.

Aizen · 29/04/2025 11:29

I am not sure of the process in taking a case to ECHR. I thought it would be either ScotGov or 4WomenScotland, presumably whichever party feel aggrieved by the ruling.

Maybe the judge will have to start from scratch through the UK courts first, then get another Supreme Court ruling based on the issue. THEN take it to ECHR.

If that is the case, another 5-10 years I'd say.

Would anyone know the process for an individual for a challenge like this?

Helleofabore · 29/04/2025 11:29

Dr McCloud continued: "The approach here is really to treat normal people like me, who just happened to change legal sex decades ago, people who've served their country, worked in the military, doctors, lawyers, nurses, just ordinary, hard-working, peaceable people, as if we're a threat to be contained and segregated."

🚩🚩🚩

A judge who doesn’t understand safeguarding principles!

borntobequiet · 29/04/2025 11:29

“Old style” post operative transsexuals were generally OK until transactivists started pushing for gender self ID as well as all the rest of it. Perhaps they should have pushed back. This person certainly didn’t. They should blame themselves.

Nominative · 29/04/2025 11:30

TangenitalContrivance · 29/04/2025 10:12

Overturning a unanimous SC position will never happen internally and the ECHR overturning it would be political suicide for labour, even if they are dead men walking, so don't worry overly.

How could it be suicide for labour? They don't control the ECHR.

TangenitalContrivance · 29/04/2025 11:31

Nominative · 29/04/2025 11:30

How could it be suicide for labour? They don't control the ECHR.

Because control of uk laws by non UK institutions is a very very hot topic.

IHeartHalloumi · 29/04/2025 11:33

We absolutely cannot have concessions based on surgery, hormone therapy or appearance. That's a pretty clear violation of human rights - to say you can only have a GRC if you have genital surgery is wrong. It's also illogical - I'd be astonished if there were more transwomen who have had their penis removed than men who identify as men who've had their penis removed due to cancer or trauma. A man without a penis is still a man. A woman who endured female genital mutilation for 'cultural' reasons is still a woman.

Some trans people 'pass' some don't and some don't want to. Some men naturally look 'feminine' and some women naturally look 'masculine'. I've never seen any evidence of transwomen being harassed or attacked in male facilities (more so than other men being harassed or attacked by men). Are there UK cases?

Pinkrabbitt · 29/04/2025 11:34

WitchesofPainswick · 29/04/2025 10:40

McCloud is excellent as a judge and I think if anyone can challenge this, she will.

I think this IS still a mess and needs unpicking. McCloud is right that there is now a tension between the previous government's planning regulations, this judgement, and also the GRA.

Also the government SURELY needs a process to decide WHO is trans and who isn't: that was the legal challenge that forced Harriet Harman to bring in the Gender Recognition Act, wasn't it? But if that no longer holds, then what is the UK's process?

The fact is that a lot of ducks needed to be lined up, and at the moment, they are not.

Planning regulations?

theilltemperedqueenofspacetime · 29/04/2025 11:36

Kinsters · 29/04/2025 11:22

Not for me to speak for everyone but I would personally not think it unreasonable for long time post op transsexuals like McCloud to use female facilities. Of course there are massive problems with this - how to police it, who is entitled to surgery, who pays for the surgery.

It's unreasonable. McCloud doesn't pass. And if there's one thing more frightening than a man in a private space, it's a man who's disguised himself as a woman.

Hoardasurass · 29/04/2025 11:36

Pyjamatimenow · 29/04/2025 10:03

This isn’t good news is it?

Actually it's very good news for women and terrible news for transwomen.
The link below is to a longish thread by Peter daly on why is so bad for transwomen.
The only logical solution is to do away with a grc and just add a self-id gender marker alongside the accurate sex marker on all legal documents.

https://x.com/peter_daly/status/1916519030279594463

https://x.com/peter_daly/status/1916519030279594463

OvaHere · 29/04/2025 11:38

Nominative · 29/04/2025 11:30

How could it be suicide for labour? They don't control the ECHR.

Because Reform and some Tories already have a desire to leave the ECHR so the ECHR overruling our SC would further cement this view with a lot of people. Politically it would be very bad for Labour.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 29/04/2025 11:38

Kinsters · 29/04/2025 11:22

Not for me to speak for everyone but I would personally not think it unreasonable for long time post op transsexuals like McCloud to use female facilities. Of course there are massive problems with this - how to police it, who is entitled to surgery, who pays for the surgery.

Well how to police it is the big one really, isn't it?

Assuming you aren't going to have genital inspections on toilet doors, doesn't saying post op trans women can use women's toilets essentially mean that any man can use them?

I also don't think it's a good idea to incentivise the surgery in any way. I would actually ban the surgery, personally.

ScrollingLeaves · 29/04/2025 11:38

OminousFlute · 29/04/2025 11:02

Unbelievably Norman Tebbit predicted this in 2004

https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/lords/2004/jan/29/gender-recognition-bill-hl

The Government seem to think that all transsexuals are delightful, kind and tolerant. Most people are delightful, kind and tolerant, but we cannot accept that transsexuals are different from any other sector of the population and that there are not some who are nasty, unkind and intolerant. The Bill potentially hands the more aggressive transsexuals a legal stick with which to beat those who disagree with them. We must do more to limit the scope for vexatious litigation. We must do more to prevent the courts running amok with the legislation, forcing it to new extremes of which, no doubt, the Minister would disapprove.

Edited

Gosh, what prescience. I had no idea he was such a clear thinker.