Meet the Other Phone. Child-safe in minutes.

Meet the Other Phone.
Child-safe in minutes.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions
OP posts:
Thread gallery
22
KilkennyCats · 25/04/2025 22:17

EweSurname · 25/04/2025 22:16

It’s a good joke - I appreciated their sense of humour!

You think it’s a joke?

Maaate · 25/04/2025 22:18

How is this going to affect the Good Laugh Projects latest cashgrab crowdfunder.

murasaki · 25/04/2025 22:19

I'm sure the kimono clad fox killer will have something to say.

JazzyJelly · 25/04/2025 22:19

Not to sound too Starmer, but it really does provide clarity. It would be very difficult to misunderstand, but I'm sure some people will try their best.

EasternStandard · 25/04/2025 22:21

Omg first part already

This means that, under the Act:

  • A ‘woman’ is a biological woman or girl (a person born female)
  • A ‘man’ is a biological man or boy (a person born male)

If somebody identifies as trans, they do not change sex for the purposes of the Act, even if they have a Gender Recognition Certificate (GRC).

  • A trans woman is a biological man
  • A trans man is a biological woman

Look at that! FWS, Sex Matters, and everyone you changed it. Bloody well
done!

EweSurname · 25/04/2025 22:23

KilkennyCats · 25/04/2025 22:17

You think it’s a joke?

I do!

PerkingFaintly · 25/04/2025 22:23

Theeyeballsinthesky · 25/04/2025 21:01

I love the smell of clarity in the evening…..

+1

Maaate · 25/04/2025 22:24

...In workplaces, it is compulsory to provide sufficient single-sex toilets, as well as sufficient single-sex changing and washing facilities where these facilities are needed...

How does this apply to a block of individual cubicles (fully enclosed, lockable and containing washing facilities) if they can be used by either sex?

titchy · 25/04/2025 22:24

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 25/04/2025 21:58

That's what I'm getting at.

According to the interim guidance, you can't.

But on a strict interpretation of the interim guidance, you also can't have an LGB association because the B is listed a separate sexual orientation in the legislation, with the L and the G grouped together.

To have LGB associations you would technically need to permit associations to restrict their membership to "members of group A or members of group B", which is unproblematic when A is LG and B is, well, B, but more controversial when A is women and B is trans women.

(Not a lawyer…) but I disagree. They share the PC of sexuality. I interpret that as a sexuality that is non-straight, a minority sexuality. They aren’t three different sexualities as far as the law goes. It’s still just one PC.

KilkennyCats · 25/04/2025 22:25

Maaate · 25/04/2025 22:24

...In workplaces, it is compulsory to provide sufficient single-sex toilets, as well as sufficient single-sex changing and washing facilities where these facilities are needed...

How does this apply to a block of individual cubicles (fully enclosed, lockable and containing washing facilities) if they can be used by either sex?

Surely they’d have to be described as unisex?

WeMeetInFairIthilien · 25/04/2025 22:26

Oh my goodness!

Just listen to that.....

It's the Hallelujah chorus!

Maaate · 25/04/2025 22:28

KilkennyCats · 25/04/2025 22:25

Surely they’d have to be described as unisex?

Cor, imagine if you'd just spent hundreds of thousands of pounds "upgrading" all your facilities to these types of toilets 🫣🤣

selffellatingouroborosofhate · 25/04/2025 22:29

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 25/04/2025 21:23

@MixTapeMel and @Soontobe60 I think it is unclear, because if you take "sexual orientation" in the broad sense of "anyone with a sexual orientation" then any space, service or association on that basis would be for gay, bisexual and straight people, which seems completely pointless. But then if you take it in the narrow sense, by subcategory, gay and bisexual people are listed in separate subcategories in the legislation.

In reality I don't think anyone is likely to split hairs about it, but I think the guidance is raising questions that don't necessarily need to be asked at this point in time.

It's simpler than you think.

There is no lawful ability to offer a service to "self-identified women" because that includes most of the women and some of the men and there's no legal basis to exclude the minority of women who identify as trans because they are trans whilst excluding most men because they don't identify as trans. You'd be discriminating against the trans-identified women whilst letting other women and other trans people (the male ones) in, and discriminating against the non-trans men whilst letting other non-trans people (women) and other men (the trans-identifying ones) in.

By contrast, it's lawful to offer a service to all the homosexual people and all the bisexual people whilst excluding all the straight people, because you aren't excluding some of the gay and bi people whilst letting some of the straight people in. It would also be lawful to offer a service to just the bisexual people, or just the homosexual people, or even just the straight people.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 25/04/2025 22:29

titchy · 25/04/2025 22:24

(Not a lawyer…) but I disagree. They share the PC of sexuality. I interpret that as a sexuality that is non-straight, a minority sexuality. They aren’t three different sexualities as far as the law goes. It’s still just one PC.

This is the relevant section. (There might be a delay while the screen shot uploads.)

Interim guidance from EHRC is out
KilkennyCats · 25/04/2025 22:29

Maaate · 25/04/2025 22:28

Cor, imagine if you'd just spent hundreds of thousands of pounds "upgrading" all your facilities to these types of toilets 🫣🤣

That’s what happens when you overreach yourself.
No sympathy for any of them.

GCITC · 25/04/2025 22:30

Maaate · 25/04/2025 22:24

...In workplaces, it is compulsory to provide sufficient single-sex toilets, as well as sufficient single-sex changing and washing facilities where these facilities are needed...

How does this apply to a block of individual cubicles (fully enclosed, lockable and containing washing facilities) if they can be used by either sex?

Relevant part of the workplace regs here. Fully contained individual facilities are fine in place of separate sex facilities.

Interim guidance from EHRC is out
PoisedRubyLion · 25/04/2025 22:30

I don’t understand how this will work in practice for trans people who blend in well. I have a trans woman friend who blends in flawlessly (I was shocked when she told me) Some trans people don’t pass and I understand why they make other women uncomfortable.

I feel heartbroken for her right now. Is she really meant to use the blokes when she had navigated life as a woman for years?

LonginesPrime · 25/04/2025 22:30

titchy · 25/04/2025 22:24

(Not a lawyer…) but I disagree. They share the PC of sexuality. I interpret that as a sexuality that is non-straight, a minority sexuality. They aren’t three different sexualities as far as the law goes. It’s still just one PC.

There actually are three sexual orientations as far as the law goes - they’re listed in the Equality Act at s12(1)(a) - (c).

But yes, lesbians and bisexual women share the sexual orientation of attraction towards persons of the same sex in this context, so I agree with you there.

murasaki · 25/04/2025 22:31

PoisedRubyLion · 25/04/2025 22:30

I don’t understand how this will work in practice for trans people who blend in well. I have a trans woman friend who blends in flawlessly (I was shocked when she told me) Some trans people don’t pass and I understand why they make other women uncomfortable.

I feel heartbroken for her right now. Is she really meant to use the blokes when she had navigated life as a woman for years?

Yes.

GargoylesofBeelzebub · 25/04/2025 22:31

YourSnugHazelTraybake · 25/04/2025 21:00

I'm a little surprised they've released it this quickly. I expected a bit more delay and ' making sure we've covered all the issues'.

It was very clear that in the absence of EHRC guidance misinformation was filling the void.

KatieAlcock · 25/04/2025 22:32

BaronessEllarawrosaurus · 25/04/2025 21:05

They didn't mention the WI or guides but that explanation that a female lesbian group can not allow in transwomen makes guides and WI positions untenable.

It mentions "associations"... So GG can't claim it isn't clear.

KilkennyCats · 25/04/2025 22:33

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 25/04/2025 22:29

This is the relevant section. (There might be a delay while the screen shot uploads.)

Surely bisexual women have access to lesbian spaces for lesbian women (obviously!) and all other spaces for straight men?
Ditto bisexual men; access to gay men’s spaces plus all other places for straight women?
They really don’t need their own separate spaces.

WandaSiri · 25/04/2025 22:35

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 25/04/2025 22:29

This is the relevant section. (There might be a delay while the screen shot uploads.)

Maybe it's like women and men sharing the PC of sex - women are female and men are male, but it's the same PC. And the single sex exemption means you can discriminate lawfully on the basis of sex to keep either women or men out.

selffellatingouroborosofhate · 25/04/2025 22:35

KilkennyCats · 25/04/2025 22:25

Surely they’d have to be described as unisex?

The EHRC have oversimplified the Workplace (Health Safety and Welfare) Regulations 1992 a tad there. Single-occupant loos, where each is a room with a proper locking door, are also lawful in the workplace as long as there are enough of them to go around.

What's not OK at work is the kind of loos that are a big hall with sinks on one wall and cubicles on the other being designated mixed-sex.

KilkennyCats · 25/04/2025 22:35

murasaki · 25/04/2025 22:31

Yes.

If your friend hadn’t been using women’s spaces for years this may not have come as such a shock 🤷🏻‍♀️

Please create an account

To comment on this thread you need to create a Mumsnet account.

This thread is not accepting new messages.