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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions
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nauticant · 25/04/2025 21:50

Has the release of this been timed to maximise coverage in the Sunday papers?

LonginesPrime · 25/04/2025 21:51

ArabellaScott · 25/04/2025 21:39

That would make sense.

So if you want to exclude transmen from a women's refuge, so as not to traumatise women who may read them as men, you should offer extra separate provision.

Means third spaces being created, or use services according to sex.

Everyone is provided for.

I’m not sure you’d have to offer separate provision for transmen if you run a women’s refuge, as it’s not like toilets where everyone has to have somewhere to pee - it’s a specific service established to meet the needs of abused women.

IIRC, the SC judgment just said they could be lawfully excluded from a refuge on the basis they look like men (given the context and the impact that would have on other service users) but it didn’t say the refuge had to also provide separate services for them.

I’d imagine they would need to go to a men’s (if they pass and want to) or mixed refuge. As someone said in parliament the other day (probably Bridget Phillipson), a specialist service that caters to them and fully understands their needs would serve them better anyway.

KilkennyCats · 25/04/2025 21:51

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 25/04/2025 21:48

No, I mean, I get that you can have a group limited to people who share two protected characteristics and that this is given as an example, rather than an exhaustive list of what you can do.

But my understanding is that the membership criteria need to be based on people sharing the same protected characteristics, whether that means "women" or "lesbians" or "disabled women" or "Black people" or "Black lesbians" etc. On a narrow reading of the legislation an LGB association would fall foul of this because you are not grouping together people who share the same protected characteristic. You are grouping people who share one sexual orientation (gay men and lesbians, who are same sex attracted) with people who share a different sexual orientation (bisexuals, who are attracted to both sexes).

I know this sounds like a really nit picky issue, but I'm concerned about it for two reasons.

Firstly, it could be used by vengeful trans activists as another attack on the LGB Alliance. They could say that their LGBTQ+ AND ALLIES associations are not discriminatory because they are technically open to everyone, whereas an LGB association is clearly discriminatory because it excludes anyone who does not have one of two protected characteristics, but because it is not for people who share the same protected characteristic it is not compliant with the Equality Act and so the discrimination is unlawful.

I am hoping that no LGBT+ groups will be stupid enough to attack the LGB Alliance again, after what happened last time.

But I am afraid that if they did, they could win on a technicality, or alternatively the court would have to find a legal justification for an association consisting of people who have either one of two different protected categories. And if they do that, then it opens up the possibilities for creating other associations or spaces for people who have one of two different protected categories....such as women plus trans women, for example.

You see where I'm going with this?

In reality I don't actually have a problem with associations for women plus trans women existing, as long as that doesn't become the default loophole to make everything for women plus trans women (and nothing for just women).

But perhaps I'm overthinking this.

Edited

Can they have a group for women and transwomen, though?
I thought as this excluded males who accept they’re males, it is excluding on the basis of sex.

Gettingbysomehow · 25/04/2025 21:52

Let's wait for the inevitable: this is a travesty it's a lie etc etc.
It's pretty unexpected though a bit like Brexit which nobody thought would happen.
I cant wait to get revenge on all those nhs managers who gave me shit for refusing to put my pronouns on my emails and call a spade a spade.

AnneLovesGilbert · 25/04/2025 21:52

It’s brilliant. I’ve emailed to thank them. Thanks for sharing OP!

GCITC · 25/04/2025 21:56

https://www.reddit.com/r/transgenderUK/comments/1k7u9xn/ehrc_interim_guidance_is_out/

It's going down well on reddit...

MissElaineEous · 25/04/2025 21:58

I’m looking forward to reading the upcoming updated policies from groups such as GG, Corp of London (Hampstead Swim Ponds) & various high street shops.

& let’s not forget The Old Vic and others who modified their toilets. In the case of Vic, kept urinals and made the cubicals mixed sex - thereby increasing the number toilets for men. Look’s like those urinals need to go…

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 25/04/2025 21:58

KilkennyCats · 25/04/2025 21:51

Can they have a group for women and transwomen, though?
I thought as this excluded males who accept they’re males, it is excluding on the basis of sex.

That's what I'm getting at.

According to the interim guidance, you can't.

But on a strict interpretation of the interim guidance, you also can't have an LGB association because the B is listed a separate sexual orientation in the legislation, with the L and the G grouped together.

To have LGB associations you would technically need to permit associations to restrict their membership to "members of group A or members of group B", which is unproblematic when A is LG and B is, well, B, but more controversial when A is women and B is trans women.

KilkennyCats · 25/04/2025 22:00

Maybe bisexual people don’t actually need a specific space of their own, any more than straight people do? 🤷🏻‍♀️

WandaSiri · 25/04/2025 22:01

So the WI can't admit MCW and exclude other men. Because women and MCWs don't share two protected characteristics, yes?

Conxis · 25/04/2025 22:03

Harassedevictee · 25/04/2025 21:49

Really clear and unequivocal guidance - sanity has been restored.

It will be interesting to see what schools, NHS and Civil Service do.

EHRC were meeting Scot Gov yesterday re NHS Fife. Oh to be a fly on the wall. I bet they got their arse handed to them on a plate!

BiologicalRobot · 25/04/2025 22:04

I bloody love it when the adults enter the room. That is so clear ❤

Edited bc I was too excited and missed a word

WandaSiri · 25/04/2025 22:04

Conxis · 25/04/2025 22:03

EHRC were meeting Scot Gov yesterday re NHS Fife. Oh to be a fly on the wall. I bet they got their arse handed to them on a plate!

Baroness Falkner probably has a lot of pent-up rage to vent!

LonginesPrime · 25/04/2025 22:05

@MissScarletInTheBallroom, I see what you’re saying, but looking at the EA s12, it’s quite clear that a lesbian and a bisexual woman would share the protected characteristic of sexual orientation under s12(2)(b) on the basis that they share the sexual orientation towards s12(1)(a) persons of the same sex.

I don’t think it matters that bisexual women might also share a sexual orientation with heterosexual women for this purpose, as there’s nothing in the EA to suggest each individual must only be classified as falling under one limb of s12(1) (the list of 3 orientations).

I’m pretty sure the point of that section was to enable lesbians and bisexual women to have women only spaces (and for gay & bi men to do the same), and I don’t think any activists who try to challenge this have a hope in hell of succeeding.

RedHelenB · 25/04/2025 22:06

Couldn't be any clearer.

DrSpartacularsMagnificentOctopus · 25/04/2025 22:07

This is great, looking forward to the full code.

MolluscMonday · 25/04/2025 22:10

God, it’s such a relief to read sanity again.

senua · 25/04/2025 22:12

I love the new terminology "trans women (biological men)".
We need to start adopting it.

LonginesPrime · 25/04/2025 22:12

GCITC · 25/04/2025 21:56

Oh my gosh - I didn’t want be mean and make a post about it as I actually find it adorable, but on that subreddit, there is a wonderful post entitled “Sex Matters Ben Cooper KC used to be a QC” and berating the hypocrisy of Sex Matters using a trans barrister.

It’s just perfect!

Hoydenish · 25/04/2025 22:13

''...In workplaces, it is compulsory to provide sufficient single-sex toilets, as well as sufficient single-sex changing and washing facilities where these facilities are needed...

...Schools must provide separate single-sex toilets for boys and girls over the age of 8. It is also compulsory for them to provide single-sex changing facilities for boys and girls over the age of 11...''

My italics - picking out the musts and the compulsories which are non-negotiables. Remember the shoulds are just shoulds and are not musts. Just for reference, hope I am not teaching anyone to suck eggs.

murasaki · 25/04/2025 22:13

LonginesPrime · 25/04/2025 22:12

Oh my gosh - I didn’t want be mean and make a post about it as I actually find it adorable, but on that subreddit, there is a wonderful post entitled “Sex Matters Ben Cooper KC used to be a QC” and berating the hypocrisy of Sex Matters using a trans barrister.

It’s just perfect!

Haha, really?

Conxis · 25/04/2025 22:15

LonginesPrime · 25/04/2025 22:12

Oh my gosh - I didn’t want be mean and make a post about it as I actually find it adorable, but on that subreddit, there is a wonderful post entitled “Sex Matters Ben Cooper KC used to be a QC” and berating the hypocrisy of Sex Matters using a trans barrister.

It’s just perfect!

OMG😂

GCITC · 25/04/2025 22:15

LonginesPrime · 25/04/2025 22:12

Oh my gosh - I didn’t want be mean and make a post about it as I actually find it adorable, but on that subreddit, there is a wonderful post entitled “Sex Matters Ben Cooper KC used to be a QC” and berating the hypocrisy of Sex Matters using a trans barrister.

It’s just perfect!

Brains do appear to be quite lacking over there.

It does make me laugh they are happy to call BC trans, but have totally ignored the fact Amnesty's lawyer it trans (it doesn't fit the narrative that no trans people were consulted).

EweSurname · 25/04/2025 22:16

LonginesPrime · 25/04/2025 22:12

Oh my gosh - I didn’t want be mean and make a post about it as I actually find it adorable, but on that subreddit, there is a wonderful post entitled “Sex Matters Ben Cooper KC used to be a QC” and berating the hypocrisy of Sex Matters using a trans barrister.

It’s just perfect!

It’s a good joke - I appreciated their sense of humour!

Boiledbeetle · 25/04/2025 22:17
Happy Lets Go GIF by Holler Studios

Wonderful!

God the TRAs will be having the hissy fit to beat all hissy fits reading that!!

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