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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions
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22
Helleofabore · 26/04/2025 20:43

ButterflyHatched · 26/04/2025 20:26

This is an odd take even for you. GnRH Agonists aren't a 'cocktail of drugs'.

We already know you're a bioessentialist but you're sounding like an antivaxxer or anti-pharmacutical puritan here. Very odd thing to say.

Gosh... is this all you have. It is weak.

No. I am referring to a treatment plan of drugs over time. One being a type of drug known to cause bone and ligament issues as the patient gets older.

I am not a 'bioessentialist' unless you have defined bioessentialism as being able to observe that a person has a body that fits into a specific and scientifically defined sex category based on its function. I mean, the majority of the planet, including scientists and medical staff and apparently some people with transgender identities also believe this.

EasternStandard · 26/04/2025 20:44

ButterflyHatched · 26/04/2025 20:26

This is an odd take even for you. GnRH Agonists aren't a 'cocktail of drugs'.

We already know you're a bioessentialist but you're sounding like an antivaxxer or anti-pharmacutical puritan here. Very odd thing to say.

‘Bioessentialist’

The language used doesn’t help.

You were lied to, it’s sad, but it wasn’t women doing that. Don’t over fixate on one woman either.

Blame the medics and organisations that sold you a damaging lie.

Helleofabore · 26/04/2025 20:46

DrSpartacularsMagnificentOctopus · 26/04/2025 20:37

"But now we are seeing a massive emotional outpouring over social media and at protests. And I think these people genuinely think that it works. Maybe they did just this to coerce getting what they wanted from others in the past."

The rage too is certainly helping to show why women need single sex spaces and provisions. I certainly don't want to encounter such manipulative, boundary-crossing, and unstable violent men in places where I least expect their presence.

I know.

It is enlightening to see.

I mean, imagine thinking that threatening women and girls will get us to agree to allow them access! It is beyond disconnected.

DrSpartacularsMagnificentOctopus · 26/04/2025 20:48

Helleofabore · 26/04/2025 20:46

I know.

It is enlightening to see.

I mean, imagine thinking that threatening women and girls will get us to agree to allow them access! It is beyond disconnected.

It is completely bonkers, and totally undermines any argument that men with the PC of GR are no risk in our spaces and provisions.

When saying no is met with threats it's easy to identify the aggressor.

GargoylesofBeelzebub · 26/04/2025 20:49

Astonishing. Women have been told that toilets don't matter, we should shut up about them. Now we're told by a transwomen that access to female toilets "anchor their world". 🙄

The cruelty and the callousness shown to rape victims, to disabled women asking for same sex care, to little girls shown an erect sex offenders penis has been an absolute fucking disgrace. Now YOU want our empathy JUST because you have to use the men's toilet. ?!?!

NO

murasaki · 26/04/2025 20:50

I had a much more legitimate reason for crying today then any of these whinging men.

I stubbed my toe.

Boiledbeetle · 26/04/2025 20:50

murasaki · 26/04/2025 20:50

I had a much more legitimate reason for crying today then any of these whinging men.

I stubbed my toe.

Sad Best Friends GIF by Lisa Vertudaches

.

KnottyAuty · 26/04/2025 20:52

ButterflyHatched · 26/04/2025 19:29

I don't think you quite understand what you are saying here.

I transitioned more than a decade before the Equality Act existed, when trans people did not have legal recognition through the GRA, but were still allowed to use single sex facilities that best suited us.

Even back then at a time of all-consuming culture-wide hostility, the idea of being banned from female facilities was patently ridiculous.

Falkner hasn't just removed my legal recognition with this guidance and rolled us back to before the Equality Act or even the GRA - she has rolled us back to a point so utterly backward; so patently dehumanising and unworkable that it almost beggars belief.

I cried myself to sleep last night - haven't done that for decades - and the tears came right back when I woke up this morning.

Your crusade has allowed Falkner to destroy everything that anchored my world. If I go out in public and use the facilities I have used my entire adult life and much of my teens, I am breaking the law. If I use facilities I am now required to use in the absence of unisex facilities, I automatically breach my right to privacy afforded by the GRA by outing myself. It's unworkable, inhumane and astonishingly irresponsible, not to mention in breach of the ECHR.

Your crusade has destroyed our lives. There are a tiny, tiny number of women in this situation in this country and you have consigned us all to social death. Half my friends are frantically making plans to leave the country; the rest are still in a state of shock. The callousness; the unbelievable cruelty with which our worlds have been torn apart, and the triumphant crowing that has accompanied it, has genuinely shocked me. It is so brazen - so inhuman in its relish at our suffering that it is hard to see it as unintentional. This is a gloating victory lap.

Before you leap in with the accusations of overplaying the impact, please think how you would feel to be told that you must now exclusively use male-only facilities, would be sent to a male prison if you decide to stand your ground and break the law that's just detonated your social existence and right to privacy, and people are cheering and gloating and crying tears of joy, then laughing about how upset it is going to make you.

It was Stonewall’s crusade that spoiled things for you. Plus a lot of exhibitionists on social media. Why are you here complaining. You need to have a word with the folks on Reddit. Other people lied to you and that’s not our fault

murasaki · 26/04/2025 20:52

Your thoughts and prayers are appreciated at this difficult time 🤣

JazzyJelly · 26/04/2025 20:54

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Annoyedone · 26/04/2025 20:57
Rest In Peace Fun GIF by Barstool Sports

@murasaki

JasmineAllen · 26/04/2025 20:57

ButterflyHatched · 26/04/2025 20:09

The GRA has no impact on passports or driving licenses. My passport was reissued many, many years before I was eligible for a GRC. I have never had a male-registered driving license.

It afforded us privacy against disclosure and allowed us to amend birth certificates, die in dignity and marry. The marriage part is thankfully irrelevant now. The other three parts are still extant. It now does not function in its intended capacity of allowing us to be genuinely and earnestly treated as legally female or male, and the privacy protections are outright breached as soon as we use public or workplace single sex facilities.

I had assumed a GRC allowed someone to amend their drivers license and passport. I suppose as it allowed someone to amend their birth certificate then it sort of did, in a non direct way.

I'm not convinced the purpose of the GRA was to allow someone to be genuinely and earnestly treated as the opposite sex and the purpose of the GRA certainly wasn't to allow trans people to deceitfully hide their sex at the expense of non consenting onlookers.

Instead the GRA allows a change to legal documentation and assumption of sex based on those changes. In reality, genuine and earnest treatment isn't dependent on the GRA holder, but instead dependent on people the GRA holder interacts with. These people are independent, sentient beings with their own opinions.

Whilst I feel trans people should not be persecuted I also feel people should not be compelled to genuinely and earnestly accept a trans person as the opposite sex.

Fortunately both these stances are protected in law. Trans people are protected from persecution and the right to have gender critical views are also protected.

So as far as I can see the GRA is as effective today as it was before the decision. No rights have changed the law has just been clarified.

EasternStandard · 26/04/2025 20:57

Women have been saying no for ages. We haven’t lied about this. What was wanted wasn’t possible.

Honestly the angry men need to take it up with Stonewall and other genderists.

Not here. Go to Stonewall et al and ask why they lied to you.

ButterflyHatched · 26/04/2025 20:58

PoisedRubyLion · 26/04/2025 16:23

She always has and will continue to be a decent person however she responds to this, but I expect she’ll seek out neutral spaces where available

I'm so sorry that the people on this thread are being so heartless about your friend. She sounds like a great person and is lucky to know someone like you. Please don't take these specific responses as representative of the general population - these people have a years-long track record of descending upon and dogpiling anyone who demonstrates the slightest dissent and it gets incredibly vicious at times. They'be been hurling abuse at me for years for daring to speak out - they keep rotating accounts because they keep getting banned but the writing styles and language used is trivially recognisable.

I'm so sorry that this anti-trans reactionary crusade has destroyed your friend's ability to live her life in peace. I wish I could make it ok - turn back the clock and find some way to avert this disaster. I am so shocked and terrified that I honestly don't know what to do, and the gloating and callousness in evidence on this thread and elsewhere is chilling.

Please make sure she doesn't see this thread and the way people here are talking about her - only a complete fool (guillty as charged) would expose herself to this kind of abuse willingly. I would strongly advise warning her off any online space infested with trans-hostile rhetoric, especially right now with 4chan down - I know I have to take regular detox breaks from this board because after a few days it feels like it has started seeping into your soul and the bizarre contortions and doublespeak are exhausting to decipher.

Give your friend a hug from me. I'm so sorry. I don't know if we can fix this nightmare within our lifetimes at this point, but I will never stop trying.

HaveYouActuallyDoneAnyWashingThisWeekMum · 26/04/2025 21:00

A transwoman is a biological man
A transman is a biological woman

So many of us have been saying this for years. Marvellous to see it written down in EHRC guidelines.

Lovelyview · 26/04/2025 21:00

ButterflyHatched · 26/04/2025 19:29

I don't think you quite understand what you are saying here.

I transitioned more than a decade before the Equality Act existed, when trans people did not have legal recognition through the GRA, but were still allowed to use single sex facilities that best suited us.

Even back then at a time of all-consuming culture-wide hostility, the idea of being banned from female facilities was patently ridiculous.

Falkner hasn't just removed my legal recognition with this guidance and rolled us back to before the Equality Act or even the GRA - she has rolled us back to a point so utterly backward; so patently dehumanising and unworkable that it almost beggars belief.

I cried myself to sleep last night - haven't done that for decades - and the tears came right back when I woke up this morning.

Your crusade has allowed Falkner to destroy everything that anchored my world. If I go out in public and use the facilities I have used my entire adult life and much of my teens, I am breaking the law. If I use facilities I am now required to use in the absence of unisex facilities, I automatically breach my right to privacy afforded by the GRA by outing myself. It's unworkable, inhumane and astonishingly irresponsible, not to mention in breach of the ECHR.

Your crusade has destroyed our lives. There are a tiny, tiny number of women in this situation in this country and you have consigned us all to social death. Half my friends are frantically making plans to leave the country; the rest are still in a state of shock. The callousness; the unbelievable cruelty with which our worlds have been torn apart, and the triumphant crowing that has accompanied it, has genuinely shocked me. It is so brazen - so inhuman in its relish at our suffering that it is hard to see it as unintentional. This is a gloating victory lap.

Before you leap in with the accusations of overplaying the impact, please think how you would feel to be told that you must now exclusively use male-only facilities, would be sent to a male prison if you decide to stand your ground and break the law that's just detonated your social existence and right to privacy, and people are cheering and gloating and crying tears of joy, then laughing about how upset it is going to make you.

You have been on Mumsnet for a while yet you have no sympathy for the victims of sexual assault being confronted by men - and they clearly are men - in toilets, changing rooms, rape crisis centres, prisons. No sympathy for disabled woman being told they have to receive intimate care from a man in a dress. Women have cried themselves to sleep because men abuse women and that is the reason we have single sex spaces. Stop your whinging and get on with your life as best you can. That's what women do.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 26/04/2025 21:01

KnottyAuty · 26/04/2025 20:52

It was Stonewall’s crusade that spoiled things for you. Plus a lot of exhibitionists on social media. Why are you here complaining. You need to have a word with the folks on Reddit. Other people lied to you and that’s not our fault

Absolutely.

The trans rights lobby massively overplayed their hand.

If they'd stuck to toilets they'd have got away with it, even with the occasional unfortunate woman or child being assaulted.

But no. They went way beyond anything that could reasonably be said to be ensuring the basic safety and dignity of quietly law abiding trans people.

It turned into "we need to respect the gender identity of convicted rapists" and "female rape survivors who want single sex care are bigots who need to reframe their trauma" and trans women taking medals in women's sporting competitions and activist thugs posing for selfies with politicians whilst holding up placards calling for TERFs to be beheaded and peeing all over the front steps to the Equality and Human Rights Commission.

Far from being powerless and marginalised, they thought they were untouchable. They thought they could continue to rub their hatred for women in our faces and that no one would ever do anything about it because we're only women.

And now they've found out to their cost that they were wrong. That there is in fact a limit to what women will put up with.

So there's no use crying crocodile tears now.

SameyMcNameChange · 26/04/2025 21:04

JasmineAllen · 26/04/2025 20:57

I had assumed a GRC allowed someone to amend their drivers license and passport. I suppose as it allowed someone to amend their birth certificate then it sort of did, in a non direct way.

I'm not convinced the purpose of the GRA was to allow someone to be genuinely and earnestly treated as the opposite sex and the purpose of the GRA certainly wasn't to allow trans people to deceitfully hide their sex at the expense of non consenting onlookers.

Instead the GRA allows a change to legal documentation and assumption of sex based on those changes. In reality, genuine and earnest treatment isn't dependent on the GRA holder, but instead dependent on people the GRA holder interacts with. These people are independent, sentient beings with their own opinions.

Whilst I feel trans people should not be persecuted I also feel people should not be compelled to genuinely and earnestly accept a trans person as the opposite sex.

Fortunately both these stances are protected in law. Trans people are protected from persecution and the right to have gender critical views are also protected.

So as far as I can see the GRA is as effective today as it was before the decision. No rights have changed the law has just been clarified.

Passports and driving licences can be amended without a GRC. In fact, they are one of the pieces of paper that can show the panel that you have been ‘living as a woman’ for the required 2 years.

RegimentalSturgeon · 26/04/2025 21:04

the bizarre contortions and doublespeak are exhausting to decipher.

🤣
Now I know you’re on the wind up. Or at least massively projecting.

GailBlancheViola · 26/04/2025 21:04

I transitioned more than a decade before the Equality Act existed, when trans people did not have legal recognition through the GRA, but were still allowed to use single sex facilities that best suited us.

Who allowed you to use female facilities that best suited you? Were women asked? Did it ever occur to you that what best suited you did not suit women? Did you care?

Even back then at a time of all-consuming culture-wide hostility, the idea of being banned from female facilities was patently ridiculous.

Why was it ever patently ridiculous for women to have spaces that were reserved for their exclusive use free from any and all males however they identify?

Falkner hasn't just removed my legal recognition with this guidance and rolled us back to before the Equality Act or even the GRA - she has rolled us back to a point so utterly backward; so patently dehumanising and unworkable that it almost beggars belief.

No, Faulkner has set right the patent lies and distortion of the las 10 or so years whereby women have been threatened, assaulted, dehumanised and told they must accept males into their spaces despite this not and never being the Law.

I cried myself to sleep last night - haven't done that for decades - and the tears came right back when I woke up this morning.

Do you spare any thought for the women who have suffered harm as a direct result of the lies and distortion of the Law? Any tears for them? Any thoughts or concern for all the women who have had to self exclude from facilities designed and designated for them due to the presence of males?

Your crusade has allowed Falkner to destroy everything that anchored my world. If I go out in public and use the facilities I have used my entire adult life and much of my teens, I am breaking the law.

The only ones on a crusade were those on your side of the debate, all women wanted was their rights upheld as per the Law. You have always been breaking the Law, you were never given carte blanche to use those facilities you (general you) took it and then berated and threatened any women who objected.

If I use facilities I am now required to use in the absence of unisex facilities, I automatically breach my right to privacy afforded by the GRA by outing myself. It's unworkable, inhumane and astonishingly irresponsible, not to mention in breach of the ECHR.

You have been breaching the privacy and dignity of women for years, women have rights too you know. It is astonishingly irresponsible that women were ever put in this position in the first place.

Your crusade has destroyed our lives.

The crusade waged in your name has destroyed the lives of countless women.

There are a tiny, tiny number of women in this situation in this country and you have consigned us all to social death. Half my friends are frantically making plans to leave the country; the rest are still in a state of shock.

The emotional, manipulative hyperbole has had it's day.

The callousness; the unbelievable cruelty with which our worlds have been torn apart, and the triumphant crowing that has accompanied it, has genuinely shocked me. It is so brazen - so inhuman in its relish at our suffering that it is hard to see it as unintentional. This is a gloating victory lap.

Mmm, look in the mirror at what your side have been doing to women for the last decade or so.

Before you leap in with the accusations of overplaying the impact, please think how you would feel to be told that you must now exclusively use male-only facilities, would be sent to a male prison if you decide to stand your ground and break the law that's just detonated your social existence and right to privacy, and people are cheering and gloating and crying tears of joy, then laughing about how upset it is going to make you.

Try thinking how women felt at being forced to share spaces with men and being threatened if they objected, that is what has been happening. You never cared one iota about women's right to privacy and as for gloating as I said before look at your own side.

DrSpartacularsMagnificentOctopus · 26/04/2025 21:06

Those unhappy with the Supreme Court's decision should be directing their ire at Dentons, at Whittle and Burns and Press for Change, at Stonewall, at the Scottish government, at all the organisations and individuals that lobbied and obfuscated and led us here. The muddle they created has now been tidied up and we have clarity on the law as it was intended, not as the unhappy ones wish it was.

This was a win for women and children, and we bloody well deserve it, and we bloody well should be able to celebrate it Gin Wine Cake

RufustheFactuaIReindeer · 26/04/2025 21:07

these people have a years-long track record of descending upon and dogpiling anyone who demonstrates the slightest dissent and it gets incredibly vicious at times. They'be been hurling abuse at me for years for daring to speak out - they keep rotating accounts because they keep getting banned but the writing styles and language used is trivially recognisable

poised by all means be unhappy with some posters on here, that is your prerogative

but quote i have put above is not the truth

Igneococcus · 26/04/2025 21:08

I actually don't think you're sad, you're absolutely revelling in the drama.

SionnachRuadh · 26/04/2025 21:08

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 26/04/2025 21:01

Absolutely.

The trans rights lobby massively overplayed their hand.

If they'd stuck to toilets they'd have got away with it, even with the occasional unfortunate woman or child being assaulted.

But no. They went way beyond anything that could reasonably be said to be ensuring the basic safety and dignity of quietly law abiding trans people.

It turned into "we need to respect the gender identity of convicted rapists" and "female rape survivors who want single sex care are bigots who need to reframe their trauma" and trans women taking medals in women's sporting competitions and activist thugs posing for selfies with politicians whilst holding up placards calling for TERFs to be beheaded and peeing all over the front steps to the Equality and Human Rights Commission.

Far from being powerless and marginalised, they thought they were untouchable. They thought they could continue to rub their hatred for women in our faces and that no one would ever do anything about it because we're only women.

And now they've found out to their cost that they were wrong. That there is in fact a limit to what women will put up with.

So there's no use crying crocodile tears now.

Edited

They should reflect on how the SC ruling went beyond the EHRC guidelines of three years ago. And what in the interim might have contributed to that.

We gave an inch and they took a mile. Now we'll have to take the whole mile back. And many of us know nice people who we feel sorry for, but they had the opportunity to take a distance from the madness. With very few exceptions, they didn't.

EasternStandard · 26/04/2025 21:09

I wonder if someone who was lied to as a child will sue, and the flood gates open. The damage is immense.

It’s not on women who try to safeguard dc, it’s the genderists who did this damage. Nowhere near on those women. It’s incredible that after all this women are looked to to mop up tears and blame. Incredible.

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