Interim guidance from EHRC is out

[impossibletoday]

https://x.com/HeadWarriorTWM/status/1915853104421167211?t=qbUrcHVdtPyqVB1uZ5depA&s=19

Some males with GRC not only have had no surgery but are in heterosexual relationships/marriages and planning to father children in the conventional way. So "if you have met one trans person, you have met one trans person". The law has to apply to all equally and the only way to do that is by biological sex. Simples

False comparison.

A tiny minority of Muslim extremists have been involved in bombings whereas surely all trans lie everyday as they purport to portray themselves as something which they are not.

I think it is pretty clear that any male that uses emotional manipulation or any tactic really, to gain access to a space they were never supposed to be in in the first place, is a person who doesn’t understand consent.

And if they don’t understand consent, and boundaries in using spaces, well, we understand that that lack of understanding about consent is likely to show up in other parts of their life. We have had live demonstrations of that right here on MN.

I don't think you quite understand what you are saying here.

I transitioned more than a decade before the Equality Act existed, when trans people did not have legal recognition through the GRA, but were still allowed to use single sex facilities that best suited us.

Even back then at a time of all-consuming culture-wide hostility, the idea of being banned from female facilities was patently ridiculous.

Falkner hasn't just removed my legal recognition with this guidance and rolled us back to before the Equality Act or even the GRA - she has rolled us back to a point so utterly backward; so patently dehumanising and unworkable that it almost beggars belief.

I cried myself to sleep last night - haven't done that for decades - and the tears came right back when I woke up this morning.

Your crusade has allowed Falkner to destroy everything that anchored my world. If I go out in public and use the facilities I have used my entire adult life and much of my teens, I am breaking the law. If I use facilities I am now required to use in the absence of unisex facilities, I automatically breach my right to privacy afforded by the GRA by outing myself. It's unworkable, inhumane and astonishingly irresponsible, not to mention in breach of the ECHR.

Your crusade has destroyed our lives. There are a tiny, tiny number of women in this situation in this country and you have consigned us all to social death. Half my friends are frantically making plans to leave the country; the rest are still in a state of shock. The callousness; the unbelievable cruelty with which our worlds have been torn apart, and the triumphant crowing that has accompanied it, has genuinely shocked me. It is so brazen - so inhuman in its relish at our suffering that it is hard to see it as unintentional. This is a gloating victory lap.

Before you leap in with the accusations of overplaying the impact, please think how you would feel to be told that you must now exclusively use male-only facilities, would be sent to a male prison if you decide to stand your ground and break the law that's just detonated your social existence and right to privacy, and people are cheering and gloating and crying tears of joy, then laughing about how upset it is going to make you.

but were still allowed to use single sex facilities that best suited us
On who’s authority, @ButterflyHatched ?

We don’t care, it’s not our problem. Women are not support humans for sad men.

You cried, how feminine 🙄

"Imagine sharing toilets etc with men“.....you have forced this on every woman you have been in toilets with, how you feeling is how they feel sharing with trans women.

Your crusade has destroyed our lives. There are a tiny, tiny number of women in this situation in this country and you have consigned us all to social death

Blimey what an overreaction. Just use unisex loos if you are really unhappy with going into the mens! It's what you've been telling women to do for years who didn't want to share their spaces with male bodied people.

And it's easy to stay out of a male prison. Don't commit a serious crime!

I do take issue with this guidance - and that's with the idea that transmen can't always use female loos. If the law says a man is a man and a woman is a woman, then a transman is legally a woman and can use the female loos. Regardless of appearance. And I also worry for masculine looking women who might be affected by this.

I do accept that in eg a rape crisis centre it might be sensible to counsel women and transmen separately. But loos are loos.

Gosh! Some men really are going to have to learn how to reframe their trauma aren't they!

• Seek professional help from a mental health professional who specializes in trauma therapy.
• Practice mindfulness exercises daily to promote present-moment awareness and reduce stress.
• Stay active with regular physical activity, like yoga or running, which is beneficial for both your physical health and mental well-being.
• Notice your trauma narrative and become aware of it.
• Reframe and recontextualize your trauma narrative to reduce shame, provide hope, and understand important connections between the traumatic event and subsequent symptoms.

Perhaps they could adopt the advice of the fox botherer @Boiledbeetle and tut and move away?

You demand an awful lot of understanding and accommodation from people that you show not the slightest bit of understanding and accommodation in return.

All these cries about leaving the country, I assume they'll all be moving to Canada? They do know they can't just decide to move where they like, a rule that applies to everyone. I suspect it's similar to the people who said they'd leave Britain if Labour got in. And haven't.

Blame the TRAs and self-id and Stonewell law for attempting a blatant land grab.

Don't blame women for standing up for our rights.

Haha yes, I lived and worked in two countries so far which required me to get proper visa first and it's really not that easy.

Your crusade has destroyed our lives.

Man complains that women wanting rights, equalities and for men to stop this appalling behaviour towards them and their spaces has wrecked his life and he's crying himself to sleep.

For God's sake.

Women are never going to be human to you are they?

A question for lawyers (or knowledgeable people) RMW is saying the EHRC clarification is illegal as it is against Grainger. And I've heard a few comments around this now.

Firstly, I will believe EHRC over RMW so I know it's not correct, but can anyone explain why he thinks he's right?

Before you leap in with the accusations of overplaying the impact, please think how you would feel to be told that you must now exclusively use male-only facilities, would be sent to a male prison if you decide to stand your ground and break the law that's just detonated your social existence and right to privacy, and people are cheering and gloating and crying tears of joy, then laughing about how upset it is going to make you.

Would never happen because - here comes the science bit - I'm not male.

As you state, TIMs used our spaces for years but - again here's the science bit - NO-ONE EVER FUCKING ASKED US. Women are cheering and crying tears of joy because our rights have been recognised and our dignity restored in law. It's not about you.

“please think how you would feel to be told that you must now exclusively use male-only facilities, would be sent to a male prison if you decide to stand your ground and break the law that's just detonated your social existence and right to privacy, and people are cheering and gloating and crying tears of joy, then laughing about how upset it is going to make you.”

Well now. I can imagine it is very harrowing.

However, it is rather hyperbolic.

There are gender neutral provisions already, so the claim that it must be only male single sex is a dishonest whopper.

Imagine being a female prisoner and having to share a prison with a male prisoner. But, luckily the Uk has lots of vulnerable male prison sections so you would be looked after. Maybe though, all those activists who got the transgender wing repurposed should campaign to get that repurposing reversed.

Either way, I am of course with the female prisoners on this decision.

And it is your choice to by the look of those words in your post to have purposefully broken laws in protest. Or do you believe you should be able to break laws because … why? Special dispensation?

So again, as per last night, you are very keen to use emotionally charged language. But it is the hyperbole and lack of boundaries that is being highlighted with posts such as this.

He is heavily invested. He has a book you see. And a reputation.

It's also a bit rich to demand women are oh so sensitive to the people who derided and dismissed their fears and feelings, and come from a community which frequently threatens to rape and kill them.

Nope.

We are but support humans and props to some people who cannot accept material reality.

At @ButterflyHatched have you tried reframing your trauma? I hear that’s recommended by one of the people you claim was “hounded out of a job”. Course he said it to rape victims who asked for a same sex counsellor.

Fly away out of our spaces, butterfly. No one cares about your tears and torment.

We all know you're just a painted moth, anyway.

But remember, we are “ a constellation of statistically linked attributes - including genotype - that together match a pattern we identify as sex.”

@ButterflyHatched

Look, I recognise that you are very upset but please try to understand it from our point of view.

For the last few years, the safety and dignity of more than 30 million women in the UK has been repeatedly compromised for your benefit.

Nurses have been disciplined for not taking their clothes off in front of predatory male colleagues with she/her pronouns. Vulnerable female prisoners have been literally locked up with male rapists who have chosen the moment of their conviction and sentencing to decide that they are women. Women and girls have been sexually assaulted in women's toilets by men claiming to be women. An elderly woman was raped by a male patient on a single sex NHS ward and then gaslit that there were no males on the ward at the time. Female rape survivors up and down the country have been denied appropriate single sex support and labelled bigoted and transphobic for wanting it.

All of this has been done to women because society has taken the view that we cannot possibly upset people like you.

Those of us who have dared to speak out and say that this is wrong have received rape and death threats from trans people. Some of them have posed for selfies with our elected politicians whilst brandishing signs calling for us to be executed. Meanwhile people in just about every position of power from parliament to the police to the HR departments of our employers to our professional accreditation bodies have been telling us how marginalised and vulnerable these people are and how we have to be kind to them.

Anyway, it turns out, none of this was legal.

This wasn't a crusade by Baroness Falkner, it was the Supreme Court confirming that the law for the last fifteen years actually gives women all the same rights to safety, dignity, privacy and freedom from discrimination as trans people. That the law does not in fact say what Stonewall have been claiming for all these years.

And although we are celebrating today, I think we're all quite conscious that this is not the end.

Because, true to form, these oppressed, marginalised and vulnerable people have been protesting in the streets calling for violence against us, interviewed on every media channel to talk about how terrible it is that women also have rights, and openly stating their intention to continue knowingly breaking the law. Meanwhile organisations across the country which really ought to know better have been announcing their intention to ignore the law, and the politicians who wrote the fucking law have also been complaining about it.

So after fifteen years of being denied our legal rights and having them effectively taken away from us via undemocratic means, it is entirely possible that they will now be taken from us again via "democratic" ones.

Democratic in the sense that our elected politicians might actually legislate to make trans rights trump women's rights properly this time, not in the sense that anyone will fucking ask our opinion or care how we feel about it.

I mean, look at those vile men brandishing their "death to TERFs" placards, and ask yourself honestly, do you really not think we've got a point when we say we don't want them in our spaces anymore?