Interim guidance from EHRC is out

[impossibletoday]

https://x.com/HeadWarriorTWM/status/1915853104421167211?t=qbUrcHVdtPyqVB1uZ5depA&s=19

Indeed it would. So no more excuses as to why your friend would even contemplate still using the Ladies.

He is a man, who has been sharing spaces with women against their will for the last decade. Get a grip on reality.

Your friend will need to go where he is legally entitled to go. Which is not the ladies.

@ButterflyHatched I am genuinely sorry for how the judgment/guidance/changes must make you feel. But be angry at those who sold you a lie, rather than accusing women of "hate", please.

As for the guidance, I notice there's a two-week consultation next month. While I'm already sharpening my metaphorical pen with a polite but firm response, I feel sorry for whoever at the EHRC is going to have to read the green crayon expletive-riddled rants from the TRA end of things.

From my unscientific survey of men, men aren't thrilled at the idea of women in their toilets, but anyone who observes the rules of men's toilets will be fine.

Go in. Do your business. Wash your hands. Leave.

Don't be weird. Don't try to strike up a conversation. Definitely don't stand next to men at the urinals and check out their willies. Don't even make eye contact if you can avoid it.

Men might be momentarily embarrassed by a woman entering, but they won't feel threatened.

I'm not saying nothing dodgy ever happens in men's toilets, but I'm convinced that the thing transwomen really fear is going into the gents and not being challenged.

I think you're right, it would be validation to be challenged, in the same way that not being challenged in the ladies is.

I hope men just don't bother challenging.

Your assertion that it’s MN “hate” that’s done “this” to you is claptrap.
If you claim to “pass” then you must have been taking puberty blockers and gross sex hormones as a child. You say it was over 25 years ago. Your parents must have facilities this, and god knows where they obtained such drugs as they certainly prescribed on the NHS in 1999.

TRA : Mumsnet must cope and seethe BWAHAHA you are powerless before the traliban!

Also TRA : Mumsnet is too powerful it's just not fair.

Pick and stick.

Traliban! 👏 👏 👏

Good point! Best get your friend a male chaperone. Chaps are usually happy to oblige by checking the coast is clear.

If he feels upset about having to use the same facilities as other men, because you know he is a man, then he needs to seek help for his anxiety and mental health issues. His delusions and anxieties aren't women's problem, we don't exist to make him feel better, it isn't our job to protect him from other men, especially when he doesn't give a shit about us and what we need as actual women.

Yet is still a man. A man that has been wrongly using the women's toilets. A wrong that has now been righted.

True, but would that mean that a lesbian woman who is married to a bisexual woman would not be able to bring her same-sex wife to lesbian event? As the wife technically isn't a lesbian? Even though they live together in a same-sex relationship and one is a lesbian? Or in practice would that kind of thing not matter so much?

The absolute arrogance of it...

"I'm anxious about using the toilet with men."

But absolutely no regard to him invading woman's toilets and how that makes women feel.

Your wish is my command.

To be fair we can't know there's no regard. It's just that's the most charitable assumption.

If your friend feels uncomfortable sharing spaces with men, surely your friend can understand why women do not want to share spaces with your friend. Regardless of your friend's gender identity, your friend is a man and will make some women uncomfortable, even to the point of them avoiding public toilets or having flashbacks.

Your friend may look like a woman to you but, regardless of how good you are at clocking trans women, some ppl are better and will clock your friend quickly. Others will just think that your friend is "off" in some way, which can still make them uncomfortable and trigger a PTSD response. If your friend sometimes feels uncomfortable around men, surely they understand this, right?

They do not have the consent of women in single sex spaces, nor could they get it without disclosing that they are trans (bc consent must be informed).

This is why the law needs to be based on objective fact, though.

We can’t have a law that says nice transwomen with female friends who can vouch for them are allowed in women’s single-sex spaces, but that grumpy ones who have no friends or who people don’t like must stay out.

It makes no more sense to say nice people are biologically female while mean people are biologically male than it does to say that a piece of paper can change someone’s biology.

Your friend might have had the surgery, but as the SC noted, not everyone who has a GRC has had surgery - some still have fully functioning penises. And physical strength is still an important factor, even for males who have been castrated.

Hmmm. Are they gender neutral to lets? 🤔

There is nothing "illegal" about a person using the "wrong" toilet.

If you go into the men's loo then you have not broken any laws.

In contrast, for example, it is illegal for a company or building owner if they do not have enough toilets for the people working in a particular building. In that situation they could be prosecuted.
.

An employer, or other person with a duty, is also required to comply with the Equality Act. However, it is not a criminal offence if the Act is not complied with, so nobody is going to get arrested.

If a company does not comply with the Equality Act then the only remedy is for a person to bring a claim through the civil courts.

Our rights as real women are NOT hate. Your attitude towards women having rights is hate. We have the right to privacy, dignity and safety. We have the right to have private female spaces free from men, however they identify. You may not like it, but the fact that you object to women having rights says a lot about you, none of it good.

I really do understand that. It is hard for me because she is a great person and just wants to quietly live her life. But I also don’t believe anyone can change sex and it annoys me when trans women claim they’re literally female and can have periods 🙄 It’s insulting and complete nonsense. Some trans people are aghast at what the current movement is doing and are probably closer to old school transsexuals. I feel sympathy for the people who have gone through the proper medical pathway, had irreversible surgery, and got a GRC.

if a person chooses to live their life trying to fool others about something completely fundamental, that person's life will be difficult and complicated, and that's a them problem.

not for women to solve by sacrificing their privacy, safety and dignity.

Any men in that loo could call the police and claim harassment and voyeurism however. Toilets labelled single sex are now definitely meant only for people of that sex. I suspect the fact this has been clarified may also clarify offences such as voyeurism or harassment because there is no good faith argument about why you're there. Now it is clear you shouldn't be.

However obviously being less strong than the men and less likely to commit a sexual crime it is likely to be a lot less alarming if it's a woman in the men's than a man in the women's. Let's not forget men have 160% the punch power compared to women. It still affects the men's dignity, privacy and in some cases will mean religious men have - without consent - breached the rules of their religion if women go into men's toilets, which I don't think should be brushed aside. Men definitely deserve single sex spaces too.

Good point. The males would have to show that a transwoman using the same toilets discriminated against them or created a hostile work environment for them. If the PP's friend is as lovely as they suggest the males in the company are unlikely to have a problem. On the other hand a transwoman using the ladies loo is likely to get a lot of complaints