Trans women are still women 2nd thread

[beetr00]

So very important for all sides.

Just wanted to continue this interesting and somewhat "provocative" debate

Exactly.

Not at all. It’s up to you. But you’re the one saying women here aren’t “kind”. Neither are you.

That’s how consent works. Not a dictatorship. If two people are in a relationship and one wants a baby and the other doesn’t, it is not ok for one to force the other to do so. Likewise sex. One no vetoes any number of yeses.

If you’re in a house share then if you want to change the status quo by moving your boyfriend in then you do not do so until you have the willing consent of all of your other housemates.

You forcing your male friend into a space specifically created for women, regardless of their concerns over safety and dignity, just because you like him and think that he’s harmless is far more akin to a dictatorship.

It isn’t kind to make a unanimous decision on behalf of all women, because you don’t like something.

I think it’s clear that not all women agree on the subject of single sex spaces, and those of us who don’t have no input, our opinions don’t matter, and we’re dragged into excluding people because another group of women wanted to.

Maybe it isn’t kind to point that out either, and that’s fair enough.

I’m not forcing anyone anywhere, I won’t be dragging “Alice” into your space against your will.

I just wouldn’t have removed that consent to begin with, and don’t agree that those who have speak for all women.

Those of us who don’t fall into that category, and aren’t interested in debating who goes in which space, are forced into complying with your desire to exclude.

Can you explain how it’s fair for everyone to follow your rules, when evidently not everyone agrees with them?

“It isn’t kind to make a unanimous decision on behalf of all women because you don’t like something.”

And yet somehow it’s apparently kind for you and Alice to make the decision force your friend who is a man, into women’s spaces regardless of our feelings, wishes and concerns.

And again WTF does socialised as a woman mean?

Female spaces are for women. Not men. It’s as simple as that. You can “point out” whatever you like, we’ve all been in this a long time. Women’s spaces were never open to men. Unfortunately men tend to do whatever suits them, and many women pander to them. Through history, this has been the case.

Alice was already going in, I haven’t made the decision to tell her not to. You have.

I won’t be forcing anyone anywhere, what I’m saying was that the decision to exclude wasn’t mine, and I don’t agree with it.

I don’t believe that the GC community should be able to make decisions on behalf of all women. And if they do (which they have) they have to accept that that is dictating to others to live by their rules.

The consent did not exist in the first place. Men, like Alice, staying out of women’s spaces is and was the default until all of this lunacy began. Just because a few “apparently oh so lovely, in spite of not respecting women’s boundaries, transwomen decided that they were entitled to use our spaces does not mean that we all consented to it. The status quo is that men do not belong in women’s spaces. If you want to change that then you need consent from every other woman and you do not have that.

Men tend to do whatever suits them.

What a lovely sweeping statement to start a Sunday with.

And transwomen are men. The Supreme Court said so.

Some years ago I was part of a group that had banners saying Transwomen Are Men torn down from a road bridge by an angry policeman who said we might offend someone, somewhere. But that was then and now everyone agrees that transwoman are men.

So are you telling me that before all this you were actively telling trans people in “your” spaces to get out?

We move in different circles. My experience is that they were there to begin with, nobody has ever asked or told them to leave, and then this debate kicked off and things changed.

I was and so were other women. TWs are men and never had the right to be in women's space. As a previous poster put it, men do whatever suits them and transwomen are men. Women never consented, they were colonised by men. We're stopping the colonisation.

It’s not just “the GC community” who want spaces free from men for safety, privacy and dignity when they are undressed or otherwise vulnerable.

The supreme court has clarified that men of any gender identity do not and never had the right to be in women's single sex spaces. Alice never had a right to be there, and this isn't GC women imposing their wants on everyone, is that actually how you think the law works? This is the law and always was the law.

The law has not changed, Alice never had the right to be in women's single sex spaces.The supreme court did not change the law to suit GC women, Stonewall and the like lied about the law and got away with it, til now. This is what the law is and always was.

Whether she had the right or not is by the by IMO, some of us were fine with her being there and were neither asking questions nor kicking her out.

What has happened from my perspective, as someone who wasn’t excluding anyone, is that some have fought a fight that I didn’t ask for or need, and clarified something that wasn’t an issue. Doing that has meant that, in practice, a group of people have been pushed out. Whether they should have been there isn’t the point for me - they were.

I didn’t see it as a fight to begin with, so I don’t see this outcome as a victory.

Yes in some circumstances I will tell people to leave. In other occasions I will leave but silence does not mean consent. Women may understandably be anxious about how a man who is stronger, larger and more aggressive will react to being told no. Especially one who has already proved that he has no respect for women or their boundaries by forcing himself into their space. It does not automatically mean consent.

So the law of the land and the human rights of your fellow citizens are 'by the by' to you? Good to know.

Women aren’t the only people with rights.

Everyone has the basic human right of peeing in peace. If a trans woman isn’t comfortable in male toilets, because like you said- they’re allegedly dangerous, she’s not welcome in yours, disabled toilets are for the disabled.

What - is she wetting herself? Going in the street? Making herself uncomfortable to make you comfortable? Waiting til she gets home? Not going out?

It’s not just our responsibility to focus on what we need, our own comfort, and our own rights.

Human rights aren’t cake, someone else having the right to have a wee doesn’t have to affect yours.

It’s a storm in a gigantic teacup, and this victory is at the sacrifice of someone else’s comfort. Comfort that you don’t think they should have had to begin with.

You don’t have to care about other people, and can only care about women if you so choose, but it doesn’t make me the bad guy for recognising everyone’s wellbeing and not just yours.

What about the rights of female prisoners who don't want to be incarcerated with men

That’s the second time you’ve asked me about prison - are you in one?

Many, many, many women have asked and told them (and yet again, it's not 'trans' people, it's MALES) to leave. You just haven't noticed but you don't care about the rights of females in a space DESIGNED for females.

And yet you clearly expect women who do not want to use the toilet when there’s a man in there to hold it/wait/go home in spite of the space being specifically designated for them.

Speaking of cake you are doing the equivalent of offering my cake to a man who already has his own perfectly good cake that he can eat. Then giving me the soggy remnants complete with his teeth marks in it and wondering why I don’t want to consume it.

silence does not mean consent.

Our point exactly, about women not saying anything to males in our spaces (because we fear for our lives standing up to a built like a brick shithouse bloke in our space). Silence, is not complicity to those males being there.

Not particularly. What I’m asking is why your needs are more important than someone else’s. Which you haven’t answered, without just reversing the question.

It’s not your cake, it’s our cake.