Please hold my hand. My daughter has drunk the koolaid, and I’m more upset & angry than I think I have ever been. (SC ruling)

[MarvellousMonsters]

This will be long, so I apologise in advance. I find myself in a grey area between radfems and woke-maidens. I don’t hate trans people, I don’t hate anyone, although as a woman in my 50s I’ve had enough male fuckwittery in my life to have a very low opinion of men in general. I do believe that there are some people with such intense dysphoria that counselling and support are not enough and surgical transition is their best solution, but I don’t believe anyone can change sex, or is born in the wrong body.

That said, I detest gender stereotypes and the confusion of sex & gender, I’m the generation of women that fought really hard on a day to day level to reject these stupid made up rules about what girls can and can’t do/wear/think, and seeing the ‘men in a dress’ become accepted as that meaning they are women is a huge step backwards, and it makes me furious.

I honestly don’t care who wears what, if a man wants to wear dresses and make up, that’s fine. I’ve spent the last 15-20 years in t-shirts and jeans, no make up etc, so I don’t see why men can’t wear skirts if they want to. As Eddie Izzard used to say, they aren’t women’s clothes, they are my clothes. (So disappointed that Eddie has now claimed to be Suzie)

I am not a dress.

I genuinely don’t care about sharing spaces like toilets, it’s possible to create safe unisex toilets, the focus on this is a distraction and needs to stop. But when men claim to identify as women and skew crime statistics, that bothers me. Men who claim to identify as women and try to insist that lesbians should date them, that’s controlling and gross. Hospital wards and bays are segregated for a reason, and demanding we use she/her pronouns doesn’t mean a man should be put in a bed in a women’s bay. Same with any communal changing area, be it the gym or a shop fitting room. Women don’t have a penis, it’s really that simple.

This morning the SC ruling was mentioned briefly and my adult daughter is furious with it. She claims it’s a step backwards, that it will cause hate crimes and violence towards trans people, that anyone who supports it is a hateful bigot and wishes harm on a vulnerable minority. I tried to calmly explain to her that no laws have been changed, only clarified, and that trans people haven’t lost any rights, nor will any MtF prisoners be immediately transferred to male prisons to be raped and murdered by the other prisoners. Women aren’t going to be randomly strip-searched by male police officers who will claim they thought it was a man, etc. She just refuses to believe that women’s safe spaces need to be just for actual biological women, because she believes trans women don’t pose a threat, and even when I explained that most trans identifying MtF don’t have surgery etc and are still fully functioning males, and showed her examples of MtF assaulting women, she won’t accept that the actions of these men mean that we should be able to hold safe spaces based on biology. I tried to explain that I understand that trans people are vulnerable to hate crimes etc, and that we need to take steps to keep them safe, but not at the expense of women. We’ve had a long and very heated argument where she has accused me of being a bigot and a bunch of other incredibly hurtful things, mostly by refusing to accept that there is a toxic sub-set of (mostly MtF) TRAs that are actually autogynephiles/INCELs with misogyny at their core, and that these people threaten actual physical harm to anyone (like JKR) who dares to question their claims of womanhood.

Help me. Help me find a way to reach her. She’s an intelligent educated young woman who has been raised with feminist values, I have modelled non-stereotypical behaviours and given her complete freedom to choose her direction in life, with no expectations or limitations based on her sex. I’m genuinely appalled to hear this garbage coming from her.

The strength of feeling seems to be really generational. My DD who is usually very calm has been very heated over this ruling. Likewise look at all the young cast of Harry Potter turning against JKR for her views.

I genuinely don’t think you can change her mind, you will just affect and possibly ruin your relationship. There are many areas you overlap with. I would not talk about it for a good while. X

What does "captured" mean?

Yep. I used to be able to talk about it, but not any more. Young adult DS is fully aware of my opinions and I just have to hope and trust that sense will prevail.

To be honest, I'm currently more angry with people, men and women, my own age who are posting pro-trans stuff all over social media. They are old enough to know better.

Yet here you are debating it…and women are 50/51% of the population, so not a “small percentage”.

Infuriating and upsetting though it is, I don’t think rational argument will change her mind. But that doesn’t mean it's ok to speak to you rudely.

It's probably best to just avoid the subject or say "Our opinions differ", but if you want to fight back you could send her this link (to some of the vile threats made to JKR) and ask her what she thinks of them. (If she says JKR deserves it, ask her to cite examples of the supposed transphobic words or behaviour). This is years old so I’m sure there have been many, many more since. Warning: they are disgusting. http://terfisaslur.com.

NRFT sorry. Just wanted to say that I personally don’t focus on the arguments that some mtf people are predatory. I stick to the fact that we have single sex spaces for privacy and dignity and no men are allowed in those women’s spaces. Not even my son, dad or partner, all of whom are lovely and no threat to anyone.

So men who identify as women fall into the category of not female, they are male and allowing them in makes the space mixed sex.
There’s also the problem that if men in dresses are allowed in it’s the perfect option for predatory men, who are unfortunately indistinguishable from genuine transexuals/transgender people (if such a thing exists).

In terms of arguing do keep coming back to the fact that you have no problem with how they present.

Hope things work out okay.

It's a reference to the Jonestown massacre, where the members of the cult drank squash laced with poison. It's a saying - maybe younger people don't get it but it's something I might say.

This is so patronising, she's intelligent and educated so should agree with you? I'm intelligent and educated and agree with your daughter, along with millions of other people

Then you should remember that gay people were deemed to be mentally ill and in need of conversion treatment. Along with all the other marginalised groups who have been treated abominably and hatefully over the decades. Trans people deserve the same respect and kindness that is now given to those other people. The downright nastiness against trans people on this board in general takes my breath away. If this was my daughter I would be so proud of her for being so open hearted and kind. But I know it is pointless to have any view except hate on trans people on here so don't all bother to pile on because I see you, I've read you.

Sorry to have to spell it out and my hope is very much this would never happen, but how would she feel about things if a transwoman raped her one night in some toilets in a nightclub or pub? Or was aggressively sexual with her? How would she feel then?

Ultimately, a penis is a rape weapon. Certainly for the majority of men, they'd not use their penis like this - however any man has the potential to rape a woman.

Therefore, she cannot compromise safe spaces because if we let one man in, we might as well let them all in - and amongst them, there will be rapists.

That's as clear as day.

Mostly though OP, your DD is young and naive and believes that we are all equal. Sadly, as life passes she'll understand that's really not the case and women take repeated knocks throughout life due to their gender and this whole episode has been another attempt by a small segment of men to erase our rights.

As we are older, we've seen it, felt it, experienced it, been kicked in the teeth with it: the world is still very much set up for the success of men in many areas of life.

Until she gets some life experience, she probably won't change.

I'd suggest dropping it for now. As PPs said, your relationship is worth so much more than this. Also, you need to take a step back and allow her brain to mature. Brains only become fully adult at age 26 or 27 and anything our young ones do or believe before then, often comes from misunderstandings, for good or bad. In the end, parental love is unconditional. You love her no matter what. You accept her, no matter what, you are the adult in the relationship. So be it. And allow her to fail graciously and be there magnanimously, when she comes full circle.

To clarify you agree that women are not entitled to single sex space?

By excepting transwoman into spaces, they become mixed sex. That means in changing rooms and toilet cubicles the designs change and go private. If the transwoman was to be attacked they wouldn’t be seen (neither would she or anyone else). If the transwoman was to have a heart attack, stroke, seizure, drug related incident or mental health emergency they would not be seen (neither would she or anyone else). The health and safety gaps get replaced by privacy.

There's nothing you can do, OP. Your DD will have to sense in her own time.

My SGD - unfortunately - took a minor in Gender Studies at uni. Her best friend was a young woman/transman who had a double mastectomy at 20. When SGD's mum expressed disquiet, the response was "Mum! You're soooo transphobic."

SGD now works for a district council and has her pronouns in her profiles. I'm hoping that she'll eventually wake up.

ETA - I'm so sorry - did not mean to quote the OP - hit the wrong button.

People can’t change sex. I’m sorry but that is an undisputed fact. So what we are left with is pandering to a delusion and your simplistic ‘live and let live’ philosophy which would be fine if it didn’t have such significant harms to girls and women.

Do you not think girls and women deserve privacy and dignity? Genuinely interested. Because when you let one male bodied person in, you let them all. And why is it “spewing bile” to say that? Again genuinely interested in the answer. Or do we just have to stfu and do what men want at any cost?

Maybe, I don't know, but are you sure?

Hardly a ringing endorsement:
"the literature to date suffers from a lack of methodological rigor that increases the risk of type I error. There is a need for continued research in suicidality outcomes following gender-affirming treatment that adequately controls for the presence of psychiatric comorbidity and treatment, substance use, and other suicide risk-enhancing and reducing factors."

It is deeply unethical imo to perform extreme surgeries on people due to their mental health issues, leaving them in many cases with lifelong complications and lack of sexual function.

In years to come, we'll view them as we currently do lobotomies.

You agree with OP’s daughter that people with gender critical views are bigots?

They're actually doing this right now in Parliament Square.
https://x.com/Doctor_Az_/status/1913575478587248769

Have you got a cite for that data cos Im defo using that one! I am so so sick of hearing 'transwomen are safe. its cis men that are the danger'.

But you have neither ‘seen ‘ nor understood what I have written here it seems .

Hugs OP.

Connect with your daughter on something else.

I'm intrigued to see how my girlboys are when school starts.

Some ideas are so stupid that only intellectuals believe them.

George Orwell

I always assumed "drank the kool aid" was a reference to the Electric Kool Aid Acid Test, ie someone is tripping out of reality.

I was already sceptical but unsure. For me what cemented my somewhat GC views was pregnancy. I had a bad time of it what with gestational diabetes and I asked for a tubal ligation if i possibly had a c section. I am 32 years old and I have been sure I want an only child for 10 years. But my GP refused to even refer me because she said that I might change my mind in 10 years (tbh she didnt seem that concerned when i was struggling with my fertility)...DH got approved immediately for a vasectomy, he is currently recovering from it.

That is the diffrence between men and women. Women are still treated like little girls who don't know their own mind even if they are in their 30s. On the other hand they are supporting hysterectomies for people barely out of their teens.

That's the thing for many young women. We go to university at a higher rate than men and many of us outearn men. But we are still the ones who get pregnant and we are the ones carrying the baby. That is a biological reality that you are only faced with when it happens to you .

So right! Gen Zer here- if only people would focus on people in Ukraine or Sudan, or helping Arab & Jewish civilians in the war rather than supporting Hamas!

Op, I have this exact same problem. I don’t know the answer though.