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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Please hold my hand. My daughter has drunk the koolaid, and I’m more upset & angry than I think I have ever been. (SC ruling)

285 replies

MarvellousMonsters · 19/04/2025 13:08

This will be long, so I apologise in advance. I find myself in a grey area between radfems and woke-maidens. I don’t hate trans people, I don’t hate anyone, although as a woman in my 50s I’ve had enough male fuckwittery in my life to have a very low opinion of men in general. I do believe that there are some people with such intense dysphoria that counselling and support are not enough and surgical transition is their best solution, but I don’t believe anyone can change sex, or is born in the wrong body.

That said, I detest gender stereotypes and the confusion of sex & gender, I’m the generation of women that fought really hard on a day to day level to reject these stupid made up rules about what girls can and can’t do/wear/think, and seeing the ‘men in a dress’ become accepted as that meaning they are women is a huge step backwards, and it makes me furious.

I honestly don’t care who wears what, if a man wants to wear dresses and make up, that’s fine. I’ve spent the last 15-20 years in t-shirts and jeans, no make up etc, so I don’t see why men can’t wear skirts if they want to. As Eddie Izzard used to say, they aren’t women’s clothes, they are my clothes. (So disappointed that Eddie has now claimed to be Suzie)

I am not a dress.

I genuinely don’t care about sharing spaces like toilets, it’s possible to create safe unisex toilets, the focus on this is a distraction and needs to stop. But when men claim to identify as women and skew crime statistics, that bothers me. Men who claim to identify as women and try to insist that lesbians should date them, that’s controlling and gross. Hospital wards and bays are segregated for a reason, and demanding we use she/her pronouns doesn’t mean a man should be put in a bed in a women’s bay. Same with any communal changing area, be it the gym or a shop fitting room. Women don’t have a penis, it’s really that simple.

This morning the SC ruling was mentioned briefly and my adult daughter is furious with it. She claims it’s a step backwards, that it will cause hate crimes and violence towards trans people, that anyone who supports it is a hateful bigot and wishes harm on a vulnerable minority. I tried to calmly explain to her that no laws have been changed, only clarified, and that trans people haven’t lost any rights, nor will any MtF prisoners be immediately transferred to male prisons to be raped and murdered by the other prisoners. Women aren’t going to be randomly strip-searched by male police officers who will claim they thought it was a man, etc. She just refuses to believe that women’s safe spaces need to be just for actual biological women, because she believes trans women don’t pose a threat, and even when I explained that most trans identifying MtF don’t have surgery etc and are still fully functioning males, and showed her examples of MtF assaulting women, she won’t accept that the actions of these men mean that we should be able to hold safe spaces based on biology. I tried to explain that I understand that trans people are vulnerable to hate crimes etc, and that we need to take steps to keep them safe, but not at the expense of women. We’ve had a long and very heated argument where she has accused me of being a bigot and a bunch of other incredibly hurtful things, mostly by refusing to accept that there is a toxic sub-set of (mostly MtF) TRAs that are actually autogynephiles/INCELs with misogyny at their core, and that these people threaten actual physical harm to anyone (like JKR) who dares to question their claims of womanhood.

Help me. Help me find a way to reach her. She’s an intelligent educated young woman who has been raised with feminist values, I have modelled non-stereotypical behaviours and given her complete freedom to choose her direction in life, with no expectations or limitations based on her sex. I’m genuinely appalled to hear this garbage coming from her.

OP posts:
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TheSecondMrsCampbellBlack · 19/04/2025 13:11

Stop trying to reach her. She’s captured and won’t listen. But the tide is turning and she might change her mind as it does.

l sympathise, my adult kids disagreed with me for ages on this but have sinc3 come round and now even send me GC memes. There is hope!

TheSecondMrsCampbellBlack · 19/04/2025 13:14

I used keep saying “you know my views”. My son challenged someone who called JKR transphobic to show him the evidence because he knew they couldn’t.

MarvellousMonsters · 19/04/2025 13:20

TheSecondMrsCampbellBlack · 19/04/2025 13:11

Stop trying to reach her. She’s captured and won’t listen. But the tide is turning and she might change her mind as it does.

l sympathise, my adult kids disagreed with me for ages on this but have sinc3 come round and now even send me GC memes. There is hope!

This is encouraging to hear, thank you

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Cecilly · 19/04/2025 13:22

Let her be. Hopefully she will come around. If not, then just agree to disagree. Family is way more important and having a close relationship with my kids would be my priority.

Shimmyshimmycocobop · 19/04/2025 13:22

I also used to have "debates" about this with DS1which when threatened to turn into an argument I backed off, I didn't feel it worth falling out with my children and knew that it was social suicide for them to espouse my views.
DS1 has now come over to my way of thinking and as a gay man is exposed to a lot of this more than I am.
DS2 is at a v woke University so I don't expect him to agree with me but hopeful that sanity or common sense will prevail when he is older.
As @TheSecondMrsCampbellBlack says he knows my views .

NonLinguisticRhetoricIsMyKryptonite · 19/04/2025 13:22

I find myself in a grey area between radfems and woke-maidens. I don’t hate trans people,

I don’t recognise your grey area and assumptions of hatred that you ascribe to others. Particularly if it’s meant to characterise the discussion on FWR.

I am sure that someone will point you to relevant threads like Break it down.

However, people can’t be reasoned out of positions that they didn’t reason themselves into etc.

Arran2024 · 19/04/2025 13:22

Sadly she is captured, as so many young people are. Did she go to uni? My daughters didn't and I know many young people who didn't, including two nephews and a niece. They all think gender ideology is crazy. Meanwhile my 3 nephews who did go to uni are fully on board, along with friends' children who also attended.

And so I believe this is as much a class issue as anything else. It is one of the views you are supposed to hold to show you belong to the elite, educated tribe - or aspire to be part of it.

Only they have the intelligence to understand trans rights - the rest of us (especially mums) are too parochial, too old fashioned, too conservative, too stupid to see it.

It's a matter of zeitgeist. Hopefully it will drop off and they will move on to something else.

RNApolymerase · 19/04/2025 13:23

I don't discuss this issue with my university age offspring. They know what I think and I know what they think and there's no point arguing really. I like to think they will work it out eventually.

Bluegreencat · 19/04/2025 13:26

I don’t discuss it with mine either. For the same reasons.

GRCP · 19/04/2025 13:27

Yours and your daughter’s relationship is worth so much more than this debate. Listen to her opinions, respect them, you don’t have to change them. It’s ok to think differently.

MarvellousMonsters · 19/04/2025 13:28

NonLinguisticRhetoricIsMyKryptonite · 19/04/2025 13:22

I find myself in a grey area between radfems and woke-maidens. I don’t hate trans people,

I don’t recognise your grey area and assumptions of hatred that you ascribe to others. Particularly if it’s meant to characterise the discussion on FWR.

I am sure that someone will point you to relevant threads like Break it down.

However, people can’t be reasoned out of positions that they didn’t reason themselves into etc.

Over the years I’ve been involved in feminist groups in various places, online and real life, and have removed myself when they’ve either started to actively hate all men (genuinely preaching that all males should be killed to keep women safe, yes, honestly) or because they’ve embraced men who claim to be women (both those who’ve had surgery etc and those who haven’t) because TWAW…. I don’t fit into either group, this is the grey area I mean.

OP posts:
MarvellousMonsters · 19/04/2025 13:31

Arran2024 · 19/04/2025 13:22

Sadly she is captured, as so many young people are. Did she go to uni? My daughters didn't and I know many young people who didn't, including two nephews and a niece. They all think gender ideology is crazy. Meanwhile my 3 nephews who did go to uni are fully on board, along with friends' children who also attended.

And so I believe this is as much a class issue as anything else. It is one of the views you are supposed to hold to show you belong to the elite, educated tribe - or aspire to be part of it.

Only they have the intelligence to understand trans rights - the rest of us (especially mums) are too parochial, too old fashioned, too conservative, too stupid to see it.

It's a matter of zeitgeist. Hopefully it will drop off and they will move on to something else.

She is a university graduate, yes, but we are very working class, so I’m not sure if that works for us.

OP posts:
senua · 19/04/2025 13:35

However, people can’t be reasoned out of positions that they didn’t reason themselves into
LOL
Try that approach. Instead of trying to convince her of your belief, ask her to explain hers (hint: she won't be able to).

Shortshriftandlethal · 19/04/2025 13:38

Bluegreencat · 19/04/2025 13:26

I don’t discuss it with mine either. For the same reasons.

I have one adult son who is thoroughly 'woke'. He has Asperger's and is really quite naive about some things. He has been groomed, politically, on-line by radical leftists, though he never used to be poltically inclined at all....unlike myself.

After lots of very unpleasant and heated rows about all sorts of things, including the trans thing..we simply don't talk about it anymore. It has certainly created distance in our relationship.....but I think over time and with growing maturity and experience he'll gradually see sense.

Chick981 · 19/04/2025 13:39

You don’t need to reach her. You’ve raised a great daughter by the sounds of things OP. Just agree to disagree on this topic and don’t discuss it again. Handhold indeed 🙄

myplace · 19/04/2025 13:39

I wouldn’t address it directly. I’d just mention random news stories- the nurses in Darlington and ‘wonder’ how that will go.

The #P4Us tomorrow.

The threats.

Resistance cements people in their opinions. Mentioning tricky situations may make her think.

Catlady63 · 19/04/2025 13:40

It's usually the bright, engaged, liberal, university kids who get deep into this. They need a cause to fight for - we already did feminism, abortion and gay rights, so this is their cause.

Their arguments are so weak as they're based on emotion, not reason, they want to passionately fight to over throw a grievience.

There's lots still wrong with the world, but transrights are very popular with young people, as you don't have to do anything other than say the right things - be passionate about climate change and there's no more cheap Ryanair flights for you.

My DD just refuses to talk to me about gender issues, as she doesn't want to argue with me ie hear views she doesn't agree with and be presented with evidence. I do feel I've failed.

Anyway, I've seen with friends with older kids that they do tend to grow out of their right on gender views.

MarvellousMonsters · 19/04/2025 13:42

senua · 19/04/2025 13:35

However, people can’t be reasoned out of positions that they didn’t reason themselves into
LOL
Try that approach. Instead of trying to convince her of your belief, ask her to explain hers (hint: she won't be able to).

Her reasoning was that we should accept trans women into our spaces so that they are safe. She couldn’t/wouldn’t accept that the fact that some of those fully male bodied trans women pose a threat to women means that we needs a third space. He argument was those third spaces don’t exist so we need to keep them with women, and that segregation is wrong

OP posts:
MarieDeGournay · 19/04/2025 13:43

GRCP · 19/04/2025 13:27

Yours and your daughter’s relationship is worth so much more than this debate. Listen to her opinions, respect them, you don’t have to change them. It’s ok to think differently.

I think the problem is that it's the OP's DD who doesn't think it's OK to think differently, MarvellousMonsters sounds like a reasonable tolerant and thoughtful woman.

I went back to check what age the daughter us and I see she's 'adult'. Hmmmm..
Some daughters are never adults in their relationship with their mothers.

At a certain point I stopped seeing my mother as 'Mam' and started seeing her as a woman who wasn't perfect and had had some difficult challenges in life and could irritate the heck out of me, but then again, that was mutual. We got on well, with the occasional row, always smoothed over by 'Will I put the kettle on?' 'Yeah, go on then'Smile

My sister, on the other hand, never grew out of seeing our mother as 'Mam', and always acted like a huffy teenager with lots of tetchy 'Honestly, Ma!' and eye rolls and to be honest, a total lack of empathy.

I think what I'm trying to say, MarvellousMonsters, is that mothers and daughters don't always make the best debating partners, because you could say 'grass is green' or 'today is Saturday' and if your DD is being like my sister, you will get an earful of being called a bigot - it's probably only partly to do with the trans debate, and a lot to do with some dynamic between you and her.

I hope she'll start seeing you as MarvellousMonsters rather than '🙄Honestly Mum!🙄'soon, in the meantime, I think the 'you know what I think' suggestion is probably best.

Sending you good wishes Flowers

MarvellousMonsters · 19/04/2025 13:45

@Catlady63 I do feel like I’ve failed. And the level of contempt and disrespect in the way she spoke to me was awful.

OP posts:
Shortshriftandlethal · 19/04/2025 13:46

MarvellousMonsters · 19/04/2025 13:28

Over the years I’ve been involved in feminist groups in various places, online and real life, and have removed myself when they’ve either started to actively hate all men (genuinely preaching that all males should be killed to keep women safe, yes, honestly) or because they’ve embraced men who claim to be women (both those who’ve had surgery etc and those who haven’t) because TWAW…. I don’t fit into either group, this is the grey area I mean.

I don't identify as a feminist anymore...I don't like labels and fixed identities.....and as you suggest for some people having an identity label like that can mean they feel they have to subscribe to a whole set of ideas about certain things which is congruent with their social group.

I'm a woman, a female person, have lived my life as a female human and i know it intimately. My brand of feminsim, if you want to call it that, is woman centred. It centres the female experience and perspective...the experineces and perspectives that arise from being in a sexed, female body and all that implies and all it involves, on both physical, emotional and social levels.

I don't attach any political 'Left-Right' label to that centring of the female experience, and i feel women are served badly when they try to shoehorn everything into a set political ideology which is rigid or which bangs on about 'the patriarchy' all of the time.

SlugsWon · 19/04/2025 13:47

Why does she need to agree with you on this one? My adult son doesn't agree with my views, which align with yours. Neither for that matter do my mum's! That's okay, I don't need hand holding or any support to convince them that I am right. They are entitled to their own views, this is not a big deal!

graceinspace999 · 19/04/2025 13:49

Sadly when she finds herself in the next hospital bed to an aggressive man when she’s seriously I’ll she may change her mind.
This has happened to me twice and to a friend twice.
This is Ireland today.

Arran2024 · 19/04/2025 13:49

MarvellousMonsters · 19/04/2025 13:31

She is a university graduate, yes, but we are very working class, so I’m not sure if that works for us.

I don't think the working class thing applies once you go to uni - you are part of that educated elite. You have spent three years or more being spoon fed progressive views and you are set apart from those who didn't go to uni, who are possibly doing better in their careers, so how else to differentiate yourself?

I think this is particularly the case in the US, where being a liberal Democrat more or less demands adherence to the cause.

Anyway, I was going to suggest you/she read 'Hags' by Victoria Smith, which I think might be helpful.

Screamingabdabz · 19/04/2025 13:51

Calmly. Every time.

“They’re not women, they’re men.”
and
”If you let one man in you let all the men in and men, as a sex class, are responsible for most of the sexual and violent crime.”
and
“I’m sorry love, but your views are just pure women-hating misogyny.”