Meet the Other Phone. A phone that grows with your child.

Meet the Other Phone.
A phone that grows with your child.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

At first I cheered, then I got angry at the years of bullying and misinformation women have been subjected to

167 replies

IwantToRetire · 16/04/2025 19:32

The Supreme Court has said the word sex in the EA means biology - fantastic! Credit due to FWS for persisting.

But why did we need a court to say this?

Because TRAs have spent years spreading misleading information.

So then you have to ask why, for instance, was Edinburgh Rape Crisis Centre able to advertise a vacancy as being under the Single Sex Exemptions but appointed a man who self identified as a woman.

None of the institutions in Scotland did anything to tell them they were breaking the law. Not funders, not politicians, not charity overseers - not even the organisation representing Rape Crisis Centres in Scotland.

Is this a specifically Scottish problem? In other parts of the UK posts advertised using the SSE no other women's service provider has done this. (As far as we know). Some women's service providers only offer SS services, some offer SS Services and also trans services, which shows they know the law. And advertise accordingly ie whether SSE or transinclusive.

When and who is going to investigate how those with power colluded to undermine the meaning of the SSE. And why Stonewall law was allowed or even promoted.

And we know the poison of the misinformation has spread particularly in more social, informal settings across the UK, and even the right of lesbians to be lesbian ie same SEX attracted.

But the added bonus of today's ruling is that with the judgement that sex is biological then the instance that the case was first started about, eg representation on boards, means companies can not include trans women to improve a companies SEX equality achievements.

And also now women's sport, women's changing rooms, women's toilets, women's (Ladies?) pond, and .... are going to mean SEX based.

So as I know there are many other threads celebrating the FWS Flowersvictory today, just wanted to ask how is it possible that so many people and institutions were so willing to accept the misrepresentation that women's rights were subservient to trans rights.

And could this happen again?

OP posts:
Thread gallery
15
TwoLoonsAndASprout · 18/04/2025 09:20

Talulahalula · 18/04/2025 09:13

I have now progressed to paragraph 223.
It seems to me that the judgement is very clear in what circumstances single sex provision is necessary in terms of the EA 2010 to avoid discrimination direct and indirect. It does not seem to me that ‘single gender’ wards would meet this, unless the BBC person is using gender to mean sex, which continues to confuse matters. The judgement deals with the conflation of gender and sex early on and is clear that the EA means biological sex.
(I know posters on here know this)

It’s fine to still be there for the LGBTQIA community. I have no objection to this (although this community has people with diverse views, they are not homogeneous but that is another issue). However, I do object to the quite frankly abusive suggestion that the law and women’s objections should be disregarded so that one small section of that community can enter women’s single-sex spaces. And I know there are some women who say they do not mind this, but even if only one woman did not consent, that should be enough. The people who want to ride roughshod over this need to take a hard look at what they are saying.

Very nicely put.

Also kudos for getting to paragraph 223. I need a clear few days ahead of me before I dive in, I think!

porridgecake · 18/04/2025 09:56

I wonder if this will make any difference to the behaviour of the police and the TRAs at LWS events?
Currently the TRAs are allowed and enabled to threaten, drown out and intimidate women in ways that in any other circumstance/location or by any other group would surely lead to arrest for public order offences.

Skyellaskerry · 18/04/2025 10:07

TwoLoonsAndASprout · 18/04/2025 08:37

It seems not: apparently NHS trusts have been writing to their employees saying (effectively - I am paraphrasing) we know this will be a very difficult time for our LGBTQIA+++ community, but know we still love you and are behind you and if you need support please reach out to HR/LGBTQIA+++ support team.

Nothing about oops, sorry women for getting the law wrong all this time.

Thanks for the link @TwoLoonsAndASprout it’s hard to keep up with all the threads right now!

And why am I not surprised. Surely the employer should be communicating factually with staff, not emotionally creating a false narrative and whipping up fear through these “we all love you” type messages, especially when they ought to know that many people will only have seen headlines and such, and not really understand the judgment.

Supporterofwomensrights · 18/04/2025 10:12

I'm definitely going to wait and see what happens and then take it up with my employer anonymously (very captured and I can't afford to 'out' myself). I'm minded to send the EDI team the guidance that Sex Matters produced for employers about the hostile environment.

The other thing that I'm noticing and hope that this will change as part of the fall out from the case, all official communications are referring to 'trans women'. For clarity, they really need to revert to 'transwomen' (without the space) - especially in company policies and so on.

moto748e · 18/04/2025 10:28

Good point. Let's reclaim the English language, word by word.

Peregrina · 18/04/2025 10:33

Could you ask what rights transwomen have lost by this ruling? For transmen some rights have been confirmed.

As far as I can see the only "rights" that transwomen lost were ones that they were stealing anyway.

RainbowZebraWarrior · 18/04/2025 10:41

moto748e · 18/04/2025 10:28

Good point. Let's reclaim the English language, word by word.

Yup.

There was a guy on Jeremy Vine's radio 2 show the other day who rang to express his concern about 'where he goes now when he's desperate to pee' Apparently he was concerned that if he wasn't wearing his skirt and wig on a particular day, he wouldn't be allowed in the women's toilets any more.

He argued that we now need a legal definition of the words 'Lady' and 'Female' cos obviously they are 'different' to the word Woman, and not in any way classified as similar nouns within the dictionary

Tiresome, gaslighting and desperate. As per.

EasternStandard · 18/04/2025 10:55

The posters on here who tried to stop any change or discussion were bad.

So many worked against women on this.

user1471471849 · 18/04/2025 15:48

LizzieSiddal · 16/04/2025 20:37

Agree with you all. It’s absolutely infuriating that women( and some men!) have had to waste time, energy and money fighting for what was the law all along.

Is anyone going to apologies?!

That's what I came onto mumsnet today to see. Where are the apologies?? I'm so incensed by what's gone on these past few years. I recently (about 6 months ago) had a conversation with a friend about the whole trans thing when we were sitting in a cafe and we had to actually whisper our thoughts about it! We acknowledged how crazy it was that we couldn't discuss the impact on women's rights without being considered 'anti-trans'.
So many brave people have spoken out and stood up for women and even lost their livelihoods and reputations in the process. Where are the apologies for all these people and why is it not in all the newspapers on the front page! A little mention yesterday is all the ruling got. All those cowards who threw Graham Linehan under a bus should be ashamed. I'm so grateful to him and Helen Joyce and JK Rowling and Jordan Peterson and everyone else who has not been afraid to speak the truth. And I'm glad I never stood down and agreed with a false rhetoric even though I've lost friends in the process.

EdithStourton · 18/04/2025 16:06

EasternStandard · 18/04/2025 10:55

The posters on here who tried to stop any change or discussion were bad.

So many worked against women on this.

And the bloody monitors who prowl around, never posting, and report anything they don't like. We had a post zapped on the Bluestocking thread the other day - you know, mostly easy-listening, and sometimes hilarious, and sometimes informative or supportive chit-chat amongst a bunch of GC women (anyone female is welcome to rock up to the bar). Someone posted something which I read as innocuous and ZAP, someone with nothing better to do than listen in on the Wims less we type out our wrongthink had reported it, and it vanished in a puff of pixels.

<waves to the monitors> We're going nowhere. We'll keep on expressing our wrong-thinky opinions.

user1471471849 · 18/04/2025 16:14

Supporterofwomensrights · 17/04/2025 23:47

Something that made me angry today: my employer (and others are at it as well, I think) issuing a statement to say that they will need to take stock and are awaiting further guidance but in the meantime would like to say that understandably trans people in our community may be feeling undermined or shaken and, as an inclusive community, we have a shared responsibility to support them, blah, blah. In some cases I've seen trans emojis and love hearts...

Had the judgement gone the other way the statement would not have acknowledged what women would have lost (in fact what we have lost over the last 15 - 20 years). No, it would have been: We welcomed the ruling in the Supreme Court as part of our commitment to fostering a welcoming and inclusive community where everybody belongs. We wholeheartedly support...blah, blah, blah.

One PP on this or another thread (I've been hopping around doing a lot of reading) described commentators as 'funereal'. Would they have been 'funereal' if 'woman' meant 'anyone'. No, they bloody would not. It's been wall-to-wall trans flags in commiseration because we GCs won and it would have been wall-to-wall flags in celebration if we'd lost.

Despite my anger, I am still delighted, of course. But I'm finding it harder to bite my tongue at work.

Edit: typo

Edited

Well put. You shouldn't have to bite your tongue of course, but I can totally picture this scenario, especially in certain work sectors.

Mollyollydolly · 18/04/2025 16:20

I feel the same. I've always kept my Facebook free of this and kept it for puppies and kittens. But something snapped this morning when I was reading one of the holier than thou 'I stand with my trans friends' post from some pillock I used to work with. I gave it him with both barrels, not dared to go back and look at the fall out. I'm so angry that an amazing win for amazing women is STILL all about the blokes. I can understand why women become 'political' lesbians men piss me right off. And I know, not all men, but so many liberal leftie ones are just the bloody worst.

RainbowZebraWarrior · 18/04/2025 18:54

"All those cowards who threw Graham Linehan under a bus should be ashamed. I'm so grateful to him and Helen Joyce and JK Rowling and Jordan Peterson and everyone else who has not been afraid to speak the truth"

Absolutely this.

@Mollyollydolly I barely use SM any more, but I follow an Aurora Borealis group on FB. Top of my feed last night was Billy Bragg and his 'I'm a Trans Ally' crap. I don't like the bloke, I don't follow the bloke, yet there it was at the top of my feed. I've blocked him now, but I just thought How Dare You. How Fucking Dare You. You haven't got a fucking clue how this has been impacting women and girls.

ETA He just doesn't give a shit about women and girls.

Peregrina · 18/04/2025 18:59

I feel the same. I've always kept my Facebook free of this and kept it for puppies and kittens. But something snapped this morning when I was reading one of the holier than thou 'I stand with my trans friends' post from some pillock I used to work with.

I have had the same, with a friend, who I wouldn't have called an idiot. I have sent her a private email though to say that I don't agree - that in fact the Supreme Court has clarified the issue and protected the rights of Trans people.

What trans people have lost is those rights that they were stealing from women ( or indeed disabled people if using disabled loos.)

I await the fall out. I feel sad, but it's still not possible to have a sensible discussion.

Oblomov25 · 18/04/2025 19:08

I feel the same, at first pleased, then pissed off that it's taken so long to get this, and that we've had to go through all these years of nonsense.

user1471471849 · 18/04/2025 19:14

Peregrina · 18/04/2025 18:59

I feel the same. I've always kept my Facebook free of this and kept it for puppies and kittens. But something snapped this morning when I was reading one of the holier than thou 'I stand with my trans friends' post from some pillock I used to work with.

I have had the same, with a friend, who I wouldn't have called an idiot. I have sent her a private email though to say that I don't agree - that in fact the Supreme Court has clarified the issue and protected the rights of Trans people.

What trans people have lost is those rights that they were stealing from women ( or indeed disabled people if using disabled loos.)

I await the fall out. I feel sad, but it's still not possible to have a sensible discussion.

I agree, it's not possible to have a sensible discussion. I sent a WhatsApp to a friend about the ruling and said what a relief it was and I could tell by her reaction that she wasn't that impressed. She said she was able to see both sides of the story. There's no discussing it with some people. I don't understand how I can see the enormous dangers of not standing up for women's rights in this instance and how it literally doesn't bother a lot of people at all (strangely, mostly women in my experience) and they think 1. you are making a big deal about nothing or 2. you are a complete fascist nazi akin to Hitler, completely devoid of compassion and they want to step slowly away from you in case it's contagious.

Mollyollydolly · 18/04/2025 19:20

I was surprised when I went back to Facebook, I think the self righteous man nearly died of shock I'd replied so comprehensively, all the others went quiet, and a very few women quietly liked my post. For Facebook that's a triumph.

MrsOvertonsWindow · 18/04/2025 19:39

Trouble is, this is the first time these people have ever heard the word no. Until this week, no matter how appalling the crime, how sinister the desire to access undressing women, how dodgy the wish to gaslight children that their bodies are wrong but a sex change will fix them, all transactivists have heard is one message:
"Whatever you want! The naked women are in that swimming pool changing room there, the children below the age of consent are lined up waiting for your talk and the aspiring sportswomen are also lined up ready to hand over their places and scholarships in that room."
From the police, the judiciary, politicians and big business - all ignoring any safeguarding, criminal or harmful behaviour because being in the sacred caste is a free ticket.

That's why we're seeing the tantrums, the threats and the unhinged responses. Because this is the first time that society has calmly and legally said no - you can't have what you want. It negatively affects other members of society who also have rights.

MarieDeGournay · 18/04/2025 20:01

Does anybody else hear
🎶First I was afraid, I was petrified..🎶
when they read the title of this thread?Grin

user1471471849 · 18/04/2025 20:05

It's like that quote from Animal farm 'All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others'. NO! Let's bring it back to all animals are equal.. Why does it feel so scary for me even to type that? I'm used to biting my tongue.

Supporterofwomensrights · 18/04/2025 20:09

It's the moral superiority of the allies that sends me stratosphere.

Trans people, TRAs and MRAs - of course they are going to advocate for themselves. But to have the 'allies' sneer at me (or they would if they knew my real views - I'm in a captured sector) because my views are 'bigoted' just makes me want to scream at them: Isla Bryson, Katie Dolatowski, Karen White - you fucking apologist for rapists.

IwantToRetire · 18/04/2025 20:27

On FWR we gave had threads about how women who claim they are feminist but socialist first, are at best partonising, and some hell bent on insulting women who are gender critical but have no other political allegiances for being right wing sympathisers and so on.

This is a post from facebook which the writer has said can be shared annonymously.

About ten years ago when Stonewall and others started lobbying for both self ID and the removal of the single sex exceptions in the Equality Act that allowed for women only services it was feminists on the left, in the VAWG sector and trade unions who first raised concerns.

The Women and Equalities Select Committee didn't take evidence from any of them before backing both proposals, which were then taken up by the then Conservative government.

Women who tried to meet to discuss the proposed changes to the law were prevented from meeting, smeared and demonised. Some were physically attacked.

It is the first time I had seen a movement propose legal change and at the same time saying that there should be no debate about these changes.

Groups like WPUK were formed, by women on the left to organise meetings around the country. Their meetings were open to all and they platformed trans women. These meetings were attacked. There were attempts to get them cancelled, bomb threats and physical attacks..Any attempt, no matter how careful and compassionate to say that this was a complicated issue that needed discussion was described as transphobic.

The needs of women prisoners, disabled women wanting same sex intimate care, women who needed a female only space to recover from trauma, lesbians who wanted to meet alone were ignored.

It should be entirely possible to meet the needs of these women, and the needs of trans people. To ensure that trans women are safe in prison and at the same time prevent male sex offenders being able to move into a women's prison on the basis of self ID. To ensure that there are services for trans and non binary people recovering from trauma and services for women who want a female only space. But that can only happen if through dialogue that respects the needs of everyone.

Women on the left tried to have those discussions. They warned that if the left failed to engage with these issues it would give ammunition to the far right.

There are currently services that try to meet everyone's needs. For example rape crisis centres that provide a universal service and also female only space and/or group therapy sessions that are female only and group therapy sessions that are trans inclusive. There are refuge services that provide single sex shared accommodation and self contained accommodation for trans women (and women with older teenage boys). There are prisons that have a wing specifically for trans women so they are safe from the rest of the prison population. There are sports that have moved to a female category and an open category. Sometimes the mix of services is by the same provider, at others it is different providers.

All of this is possible. The supreme court judgement confirmed that it is legal, while also confirming the protection of trans people under the Equality Act. It should be the start of a conversation about how to meet everyone's needs and respect everyone's rights, which many feminists have been trying to have for a long time.

But that can't happen if women who want female only spaces and services are smeared with guilt by association because Trump has spotted the mess the Democrats have got into on this issue and taken advantage. It's about as meaningful as pointing at Isla Bryson every time someone talks about the rights of Trans people and saying 'you are on the side of rapists'.

So not sure about anyone else but this makes me really angry and sad.

Are there really women who think only socialist women and women in TUs did anything about countering the trans narrative, or is it just the usual we are so superior we dont even have to acknowledge the existence of other women?

So not wanting to make it too personal, but it was written by someone who has been part of what is called the VAWG sector (violence against women and girls) and has got lots of likes.

It is this sectarianism that has allowed the TRAs to take advantage of differences, so that campaigning against them has been splintered etc..

And also grossly underestimates how many women as individuals, throught for instance FWR on MN, have become active.

Let alone the many newer feminist groups that have formed to campaign on this issue.

As I said on another thread, many of these VAWG groups are the very ones that exist based on the SSE, and this in fact may be their crunch time.

If they cant even make a simple statement about of course single sex (biological) services are absolutely crucial and the core of our work, but we also have and will continue to provide appropriate services to TW.

Again on another thread I suggest starting (yet) another one just to record the responses from women service providers.

All these women, such as the writer of the post above, in the old days of women's liberation would have gone out of their way to communicate and interact with women who were campaigning for women's sex based rights. Maybe even taken the time to explain themselves and their work. But instead they have stayed silent throughout the years, and now seem to think it will all go back to them being "professionals" who only talk to each other and dont have time for "the woman in the street". And claim victory as socialists.

In years gone by it was a sort of joke that the socialist feminists, far from being about equality, operated as though they were the Lady of the Manor, or even the Memsahibs in the British Empire. ie they were the lightening rod of appropriate thought and behaviour, and they very kindly took the time to tell those of the lower orders what to think and how to behave.

This could have been a revival of the link between local women and local women service providers, but I now very much doubt it will happen.

This doesn't just make me angry, but makes me sad and dispair.

(NB!! I somehow didn't include the opening paragraphs so sorry to those who read the quote and thought it didn't make sense)

OP posts:
chipsaregreat · 18/04/2025 20:59

I was so delighted with the judgement this week it felt a bit like when JKR first posted supporting Maya when she lost her first employment tribunal and he subsequent posts from her afterwards. The jubilance this time was immense it was a court of law the biggest one, no appeals to these ones!
For one day it was all good then came the lads to take over, tell us the sympathy we should feel for them.Then you get the reasonable solutions (like no one has ever thought of those before) ffs like third spaces but we all know the malaga lads have no interest in these. So it's more waiting, more gaslighting from the press and the tra's and their mates but this time there will be very real live ramifications and I can't wait to see them.
This is my first ever post on here, i'm one of those lurkers ,have been for over 10years. You'll never know just how much your remarkable comments and actions have meant to me. I'm not great at the writing but love reading and my hand has been in my pocket so many times supporting all the cases this one included. So thank you all

RainbowZebraWarrior · 18/04/2025 21:13

As a 53 year old Autistic GC woman who was a tomboy as a child, it's terrifying to see how many people are now coming out of the woodwork following the court ruling this week.

A friend of two decades has just posted on FB that it's 'cis' Men that are the problem, and that Trans People have never caused any issue. She's also Autistic.

My daughter is 13 and Autistic too. She's a tomboy and a lesbian. It takes all of my mental and physical energy to keep her safe. To keep her from being captured. To keep reminding her that the Trans movement is harmful. I'm exhausted.

On another forum, a man who has always been rather sensible and with similar political views to mine has now gone full-on TRA.

This is the problem that we have. The Right are totally anti Trans (for different reasons, certainly not feminist, mostly misogynistic). The Left are entirely captured. I've been politically homeless for a long time now. There is no political party that supports my views any more. They are all extreme.

It's never ending.

JennyForeigner · 18/04/2025 21:25

The fucking PATRIARCHY of it all.