Is there any future you'd accept for trans people?

[AYoungTransWoman]

Hello, I'm a young trans person who transitioned in my teens. I've been on hormones my entire adult life, have a GRC and will have Gender Reassignment Surgery imminently.

Is there any future you would accept for people like me who have gone through everything?

To be brutally honest, your future is of no concern to me. I wish you no ill will in the same way I wish the majority of other people no ill will. I just want males to stay out of female single sex provision.

You might be interested in Blaire White op. A 'transwoman' who has made his peace with what he is (and apparently still has his penis) There are many ways to be trans.
_

This is where I'm at too

OP - I'm OK with calling you Jenny (or whatever) and wearing a dress. And I'll refer to you as "she" as a courtesy, provided we can all acknowledge the truth

But I'll never regard you as female and won't tolerate you in my female changing room

Honestly, I have compassion for you. It must be very tough to feel that your sex doesn't match how you wish to behave / be perceived. But the answer is to expand what it means to be a man, not to try to be a woman

@AYoungTransWoman Accept that you are a man, always were always will be, and work on expanding the category of what it means to be a man.
Live long and prosper

Just considering your answers to other posters above, do you wish you sought therapy for your dysmorphia instead of undergoing surgery? I don't care what adults choose to do, but I don't agree with inposing such beliefs onto children and teaching it as if it's a fact. My younger sister went through a few years telling everyone she's male etc (aged 14) until then recently saying she's not anymore she's female. She underwent a lot of a trauma in her life and If she is a small example of why we should as a society be careful not to jump straight into the medical route of physically accepting young children/adults to tamper with their body but actually drawing back to my original question, undergo therapy for an alterative issue that may be playing out

Personally I very much mind anyone male, be-penised or not, using women's spaces. @Thedownsideisup , I hope you realise that you can't give consent on behalf of another person, in this or anything else.

It's odd for a tw to be worried about losing a GRC, no actual woman needs one to be a woman. It, ironically, marks tw out as male, and vice versa.

I can remember talking to several transwomen over the years (all pre-2010, so before the TWAW mantra), and they were all very much based in reality. I accept that they did not speak for all people with trans identities, but they were very clear about how thorough the support they had before transition was very thorough. They were told as part of the required counselling that they had not actually changed sex, and they accepted this fully (that they were male and would always be male). They were also clear that the changes that they had made to their bodies made them feel more comfortable in themselves. They used unisex provisions wherever possible and planned trips out carefully to help achieve this as they wanted to avoid using either male or female toilets. I think they were more realistic about surgical complications, too, as this is an area that is currently glossed over by far too many people.

I would like to see a future for trans people where the expectations are more based in reality (as it was 20 years ago). I would like to see a future where third unisex spaces are campaigned for by trans activists. I would like to see a future where a trans person - or trans activist - does not insist that it is possible to change sex (this is impossible for mammals). I want everyone to be as safe and as happy as society can manage. I want the instances where single-sex spaces or care are required/wanted/needed to mean single-sex and not single-gender. So no more transwomen in female single-sex spaces such as toilets, prisons, rape crisis support groups etc. No more erasing female language such as mother being replaced by 'birthing person'. No more rape threats or other violent threats from TRAs towards women they call TERFs. I would like a future where trans people are not 'crushed' if a member of the public correctly sexes them.

A lot of the discord over the last few years can be laid at the feet of an authoritarian push to deny biological reality. This needs to stop for everyone's sake. Human beings cannot change sex, and a future where this is recognised will be better than one based on lies and forcing/threatening people to play along against their will.

IMO being "trans" (it's not very clear what it means, and sometimes it seems to mean things that are factually impossible, so I'm using that to cover a range of possibilities) should be seen for what it is, a belief system that is not based on fact. It should be treated like having a belief in astrology, or like claiming to be any other category that you can't be (different age from what you are, different ethnicity from what you are, different height from what you are etc).

So what that means is I don't wish anyone with those beliefs any harm, and I don't think they should be discriminated against or persecuted at all. I'm quite happy for people to have their own beliefs and I understand that conditions like body or sex dysphoria are hard to deal with and deciding/believing or just pretending you're the opposite sex may help. If they stuck to indulging that belief on a personal level or with like-minded others, left me out of it and it didn't affect me, I would not be so rude as to challenge someone's incorrect or unevidenced belief, just as I don't with astrology, religion etc.

For me to respect trans people in this way, they would have to stay in their lane as regards their actual sex - no demanding access to opposite sex spaces, sports etc (because those things only affect one sex in a really bad way, don't they? That's because biological sex is a reality.) :"Trans" should mean "I want to consider myself the opposite sex but I do understand I'm not as far as other people are concerned and the opposite sex's rights and spaces do not belong to me". This is the evidence-based position. There's no evidence anyone can change sex, or ever has, and there's plenty of evidence that trans-identifying people, especially males, statistically align with the behaviour and criminality levels of their biological sex, so TW absolutely should not be entitled to things that are for women only.

I think it should be perfectly reasonable for those who don't share the belief to say so and not to go along with the pretence if they don't want to. I also think you can only consider yourself "trans" if you are very deeply sexist, as it means you believe there is something other than your body that makes you the opposite sex, and the only thing that can be is gender stereotypes. It means you uphold gender stereotypes, and as a feminist I don't, so I wouldn't have a whole lot of time for people who think that way - unless they are the very realistic, honest type of trans person who doesn't deny their real sex or require everyone else to indulge them (they do exist and I recognise that).

It should be OK to say "X identifies as a TW, that's their business but I don't agree, don't like their sexism and don't like being cosplayed". Why not, when we can say that about the same situation when it applies to race, etc?

The only reason many feminists, LGB people and others are now vocally opposed to trans ideology is that an unevidenced belief is being imposed on us and is being used to take things away from us (women's sports medals, women's safety from males in their own spaces, lesbians having male-free spaces and dating, people being allowed to speak the truth, healthcare professionals being allowed to understand and talk about what kind of body they're trying to heal, schools being able to teach biological reality, children and teens being able to explore identity without commitment or permanent harm, etc.) If it wasn't being imposed on us - as well as being backed up by abuse and violent threats from extremist activists - this wouldn't have happened. We've had trans for decades and most of us had nothing against trans people at all up until it started being used as a sexist, homophobic, ideological power play that disadvantages and harms women, children, lesbians and gays.

How does a person lose a GRC? Does anyone check in the future to make sure you're womanning correctly? Surely once you've got a GRC that's it, you've got it? Do they ever get revoked? On what grounds?

So many questions.

Wear what you like, but avoid the fetishised stereotype of cosplaying 'a woman.' Change your name and pronouns if you want. Date who you like, when it's safe, sane and consensual.
Do not demand that woman participate in this delusion. Do not call women 'cis'. Please understand that you should never be in places where women and girls are naked and vulnerable. Your want does not trump our need for safety. Understand that you will never truly understand that it's not all men, but always a man who is a threat and a pervert, so we consequently don't want any in our spaces, and that includes you. It isn't personal. You probably don't and will never 'pass.' Leave lesbians alone, we are not interested. If you've grown your hair, wash it. Play sport and enjoy it, but stay away from competing against women. Put away the pornography and get therapy. Learn about autism and read the threads on Reddit about 'rot pockets.' Please decide that you do not want a lifetime of incontinence, infertility, and never having an orgasm again, never mind being a life long patient at huge expense. Get more therapy and focus on your health.

I would like to see a future for trans people where the expectations are more based in reality (as it was 20 years ago). I would like to see a future where third unisex spaces are campaigned for by trans activists. I would like to see a future where a trans person - or trans activist - does not insist that it is possible to change sex (this is impossible for mammals). I want everyone to be as safe and as happy as society can manage. I want the instances where single-sex spaces or care are required/wanted/needed to mean single-sex and not single-gender. So no more transwomen in female single-sex spaces such as toilets, prisons, rape crisis support groups etc. No more erasing female language such as mother being replaced by 'birthing person'. No more rape threats or other violent threats from TRAs towards women they call TERFs. I would like a future where trans people are not 'crushed' if a member of the public correctly sexes them.
A lot of the discord over the last few years can be laid at the feet of an authoritarian push to deny biological reality. This needs to stop for everyone's sake. Human beings cannot change sex, and a future where this is recognised will be better than one based on lies and forcing/threatening people to play along against their will.

I agree @FlowchartRequired 👏

But you are actually not any type of female. The term for a male who has a transgender identity should be surely a trans male. A male who identifies as 'trans'.

To call any male a 'trans female' implies that they are somehow a type of female. Which is simply not true.

I think those stats should be used with caution. I imagine that way are spot on for the old-skool transsexuals who only progressed to that stage through the long route of counselling and consideration. But I suspect they won’t hold true for the new wave where the process is being accelerated. And social media/the stamping out of reasonable debate means downsides are downplayed.

Surgery is surgery and comes with risks and quite a lot of pain. A friend had a single mastectomy back in 2020 and had a reconstruction/fluid pouch inserted at that time. Relevant if you’re thinking of breast implants. She’s just having the 5th repair surgery now after it’s repeatedly gone wrong - thats 5 years of problems. Not good. I had a relatively minor lumpectomy last year and I’m still in pain 8 months on - apparently I can expect this to continue for 1-2 years (if I’m lucky). I can no longer feel part of my arm. I’ll never get that back. It might suddenly blow up like a balloon with lymphoedema.

Surgery is surgery. Drugs are complicated. And there’s a lot that regularly goes wrong! Always look at: BRAN before doing anything.
B = Benefits
R = Risks
A = Alternatives
N = Nothing
Seek out reviews from others IRL who have done what you want to do. Steer clear of the top and bottom reviews. Consider attending one of the detransitioner conferences - I heard a podcast by Peter Bell who said the reflections they shared were really insightful.

I don’t think anyone here’s going to say all GRCs should be repealed or that your hormones taken away, but I’ve often wondered what happens if there’s a supply problem? DS’s adhd meds are bloody difficult to get. It’s stressful every month. I’m trying to work out what happens if there’s a supply whole Russia thing kicks off whether the whole supply will dry up. If you can, get yourself into a situation where you’ve got some security of supply and don’t increase your need to rely on drugs in case things go south. Sorry to be a worry wort but since COVID I’ve realised how much we all rely on technology and drugs which can get switched off without our say so.

While you ponder that OP just be who you are now. Try to enjoy yourself and live in the moment. I’m sure OP is fabulous just as they are. I’d love for them to be comfortable in their own skin and to love life, do well by themselves and look after others. I wish you the best of luck as it sounds like you’ve chosen a difficult path - I hope you find what you’re looking for

You seem to have a massive chip on your shoulder and think ALL mumsnetters wish you no future ?

First of all stop clumping thousands of people together assuming we all have the same attitude

dont be a knob head to people be a good colleague, parent , sibling daughter and most people will treat you as you wish

your futures yours to make
im a black disabled gay woman i dont allow sexist racist homophonic people to dictate my future

I have previously wondered if we should return to using transexual and transvestite. The transwomen I referred to above were known as transexuals at that time.

As ever, if some men behave badly to some other men in men's spaces, it is up to men, collectively, to stop them doing that. The best suggestion we have had so far is that men's facilities could be slightly reconfigured, with a cubicle inside the access door, if necessary screened off from the urinals, so that a man who wants to be on his own can be. But that is up to men.

That leaves people coping with menstruation, lactation, pregnancy, menopause, etc etc etc to get on with that as privately as possible in the knowledge that the people they share the space with have some understanding.

Maybe acceptance from the haters, maybe !!!

What trans rights are being stopped?

I wish you happiness, health, peace of mind and security OP. The same as all people. I don’t think anyone here thinks differently.

This is just it.

Someone made getting a GRC / accessing female single sex spaces into a prize for some male people to achieve. When it should never have been.

The label of 'girl' or 'woman' is not a prize for a person most willing to undergo surgery or to act in the most sexist stereotypical way. It was never up for giving away to a group of people who don't belong in the category.

And yet, there are posters on this very thread who are happy to do just that.

My concern is for women and children, not the feelings of men who want to conceal their sex. I dont care what you say are the reasons, the outcome is reduced safeguarding. And a civilised society doesn't priorities the wants of men over the safety and dignity of women and children.

I can't see a future where the state can continuing to allow men to hide their sex, let alone pretend to be female and have effective safeguarding.

So ultimately if the state doesnt want to abandon safeguarding completely, the idea that men can 'transition' to women will have to be eliminated from law.

As long as you accept that as someone born male there are some areas that you should not access, then I wish you all the best with your future.
Someone born male should not compete in women-only sports.
Someone born male should not be allowed to attend women-only sports sessions.
Someone born male should be entirely open when applying to work in female-safe spaces such as refuges, rape crisis centres.
Someone born male should not be in a women's prison.

OP I would call you by whichever pronouns and name you prefer.

I don’t see you as a threat to my womanhood and I don’t see you as a danger to me.

You deserve to live a life of peace and happiness, just like everyone else and if that means living as a gender difference to the one assigned to you at birth then so be it. You are harming no one by being yourself and existing in a way that you are comfortable with.

I agree with this - I feel for the OP but it doesn’t mean women are to be used as a gotcha