Is there any future you'd accept for trans people?

[AYoungTransWoman]

Hello, I'm a young trans person who transitioned in my teens. I've been on hormones my entire adult life, have a GRC and will have Gender Reassignment Surgery imminently.

Is there any future you would accept for people like me who have gone through everything?

What name calling, calling men men?

So what happens when the op reaches the age where the risk of prostate issues arise? Should health care professionals go along with your view that he is now a woman? Denying the reality of biological sex is beyond foolish.

You are seriously equating being Trans gender to being black?

Haven't they just?

I also lived in Brighton in the same era as you, maybe a few years earlier. You could then even take courses in women's studies and feminism at Sussex university which was actually about women and feminist history! I know! The shock! Then it was all dismantled in favour of gender shit and queer theory. And ends up with women like Kathleen Stock being viciously bullied and hounded out of her job there for basically talking about the exact same things that actual feminists in the same university were talking about back in the day. Because feminism has been very successfully demonised.

It's so sad that so many young women in Brighton now, the equivalents of myself at that age. actually seem to think it's fashionable and "feminist" to be basically subservient ("sweet and kind") while actively cheering on regressively sex stereotypes in the form of gender ideology and furiously working to prevent female rape victims in the area from being permitted women-only rape crisis services.

A number has been done on them indeed. Worse, I remember it starting.

That word does not mean what you think it means

So you completely ignore all the safe guarding issues that this ideology raises for children, especially girls, and women?

We’re vocal on the subject because many of us have experienced violence from men, we believe that men, as a sex class, can be predatory, and we know that TIM’s offend at exactly the same rate as other men.

So excuse us for using reason and facts on which to base our views, rather than ‘feelings’. We don’t speak for all women, but many women don’t speak because people like you don’t let them say what they really think.

Life must be terrifying for you

Why are you being disparaging and patronising to me?

If you follow the argument of ‘long established practices’, then what about the patriarchy? That’s a long established practice of sex segregation.

I don’t agree with gender segregation. Or any segregation. I prefer unisex cubicles. I’m sick of queuing for women’s toilets, while men can be in and out. That’s not gender equity of space, surely?

"... the future I'd hope for you would be one where you are content with a functional body, take care of it in the hope that you'll live a long, happy and fulfilled life in it, without punishing it for imaginary 'wrongness'."
@DeanElderberry this is such an eloquent sentence. I've never /quite/ been on board when I've seen (some iterations of) trans identification and body modification as similar to anorexia or cutting. The way you've put this here, I can see exactly what the connection is. Thank you.

Academic liberal types lead a very privileged existence compared to many. I doubt they worry too much about ending up in prison, or having nowhere else to go other than a state run/charitable domestic abuse shelter.

They are not the ones facing the sharp end of the consequences of pretending than men can be women.

You're not going to deny it then?
Take some evening primrose and calm down

Errrr - Men’s toilets have urinals - that is why they can be quicker
once everyone has to be in unisex toilets we all have to queue for longer.

Firstly, most places that have rules on children accept opposite sex children along with their parents up to about age 8, around which time it becomes inappropriate for both the children and other adults using the facilities.

As for adults, yes obviously trans women in the men's and trans men in the women's. Because trans women are men and trans men are women.

As a woman, I don't actually care much about where trans men go, not my problem. But I don't want trans women (i.e. men) in the women's. You're advocating for mixed sex facilities. No thank you.

No one knows who you are speaking to

There are reasons why fully enclosed gender neutral toilets don’t work for as many people as some people think, and that is because of how female people use the toilets.

Fully enclosed cubicles pose a significant risk to those with particular health conditions where they rely on the gap between floor and door/wall so people can identify that they are are on the floor and in need of assistance. It doesn't take long in life threatening situations. There was always a reason for that gap and it was not just budgetary.

Here is just one of the significant differences between the female and male life experiences as well. Female people DON'T just use the toilet to piss.

What do women do in toilets?

I spent many days, often 2-3 time a week, where I had a stroller or pram jammed in the door because I had no one but myself to do shopping. And I didn’t need the change table so didn’t use the accessible toilet if there was one. That included at period time with flooding periods and hormonal diarrhoea. Often with a crying infant.

I have also had to take my wheelchair bound elderly mother to a normal cubicle when there was no accessible toilet available. Where I couldn’t leave her to sit without assistance to remove the wheelchair to lock the door .

Those fully enclosed cubicles that open directly onto public space, how would either of the above situations work?

I, too, have washed clothing out, and at times had to unbutton shirts to get them dry from baby vomit, or leaking breasts.

I have even had to do this at work when I was stuck in an event for hours and could not leave to express so ended up with significant leakage. More than once. Because breastfeeding women work too.

Rinse the back of my skirt out because of blood leakage.

And got dressed in work toilets for various reasons.

I have had friends lose their pregnancies in the female toilets and needed help from other women there. How does this happen in a fully enclosed cubicle that opens into a public space?

I know I am not the only one because several times this past year I have come across half stripped women in the toilets while out dealing with similar issues.

The solution is not demanding gender neutral toilets. It is not fully enclosed cubicles. A female taking up a cubicle to wash and dry clothes is putting an undue time demand on those waiting to use that cubicle.

Female toilet usage has never been straightforward and fully enclosed toilets opening onto mixed sex and publicly visible spaces limits how those spaces are used. The solution is female single sex toilets that are respected by male people as being single sex. And if those male people feel they need a separate space, then they should be campaigning for it. And they always should have been campaigning for it.

You need to read this back and then delete it, it’s awful.

Also not to mention, unisex toilets take up far more space so they have far less toilets in the same space so even longer queues.

Can you explain what you think the purpose of single sex spaces is?

Ahhh Sally, the misogyny is strong with this one.

Are we women being too hysterical for you?

For daring to believe that women exist and are distinct from the males who appropriate womanhood?

No one knows who you are addressing 😂

Except the OP isn’t a woman and never will be. No hormones or surgery can ever change the biological fact that every single cell in their body is male. This cannot be changed.
It isn’t a ‘backlash’ to be concerned about a person who is biologically male using women’s spaces.
Like most people, I’d like everyone to live a peaceable life. But this doesn’t mean prioritizing the needs of a small sector of society against others who have genuine concerns.
And it’s actually very common for young people to question their gender identity and for some, being trans is very much a phase

Yes, of course boys go in the men's. They're male people.
Very young children who can't use the toilet on their own are taken by their parent or carer into the facilities that accord with the parent's or carer's sex.

People who claim a trans identity should use facilities according to their sex.

If space permits, additional options like a family changing area at swimming pools, or a unisex toilet should be provided.

Actually, this isn't always easy.

Where we used to go swimming, there were 2 smallish single sex communal changing rooms, which were quite far apart, and I wasn't comfortable sending my 8 year old son into a room that I had never entered with strangers.

The pool was never going to have space for lots of cubicles, but it would have been great if there had been additional shared space for opposite sex carers, who for various reasons are sometimes required beyond the age of 8.

I remember having loads of arguments about this on MN back in the day, and I still think some unisex provision is necessary.

However, it was then that I learned to respect the fact that many women need single sex provision.

Why do you think we had single sex toilets and other spaces and services, Edith? Why do you think they are, even now, seen by many in the world as essential for women and girls' fundamental human rights (see Unesco,for instance)?

Do you think Elizabeth Fry campaigned on male and female prisoners being separated because she was "pro-patriarchy" for instance?? Or could it have been something else?

And do you HONESTLY not understand the difference between separating women and girls from men in situations where they are undressed or vulnerable, and separating them in order to oppress them or treat them as lesser?

Because if you don't, might I suggest you are somewhat lacking in critical thinking skills. As well as historical and factual literacy.

Yes I'm sick of queueing for women's toilets too. The answer is not to have gender neutral toilets (i.e. mixed sex), nor to allow some men in the women's. The answer is to design buildings with around 2x as much provision for women as for men. This is well known - it even has a name, "potty parity" - and it's a mystery to me why no one adopts it.