Is there any future you'd accept for trans people?

[AYoungTransWoman]

Hello, I'm a young trans person who transitioned in my teens. I've been on hormones my entire adult life, have a GRC and will have Gender Reassignment Surgery imminently.

Is there any future you would accept for people like me who have gone through everything?

@ArabellaScott oh Arabella, if only I knew! 🤦‍♀️

I wish I had an answer. Ultimately anyone who has a predatory nature hides who they are until caught, no matter how they’re identifying which makes it hard to tell with everyone. Sadly enough, I’ve just discovered a “lovely” teacher I knew has recently lost his job for CSABI, he hid being a abuser well. Just average run of the mill fella.
We don’t know a bad egg if they’re trans or not, but I think that trans people welcome people freely into their communities and circles and whilst that’s nice on the surface, any smallish community, especially one full of vulnerable people such as the trans one certainly attracts awful men, which is then harmful to the whole community. They need to be more careful with who they let into their circles. the more vocal trans people who can’t fathom a grain of common sense do more damage to this community than anyone else possibly could, but if those people didn’t allow phrases such as “minor attracted person” and what not, I don’t doubt for a minute people such as myself wouldn’t feel suspicious and threatened by that part of the community. Anyone who used “map” to describe a child abuser wouldn’t be someone I’d tolerate.
I don’t have answers but I agree it’s not the job of women to be sorting the people who pose risk in the trans community from those who just want to live happily. I think we can work together to try and stop people feeling scared or unsafe from either side, but the trans community, no matter if it’s on a small personal scale or large scale, need to really be far more choosy for who the take in. It seems they’re so desperate for ally’s and validation they end up allowing some dangerous men fly their flag and it’s doing nothing but causing harm.

That's the extent of your engagement, is it? Bit one sided, no?

Hi @AYoungTransWoman

I agree with others here about not using single sex female space so won't go into that.

But I hope in your future you can get the help and therapy you need to understand the root cause of your dysphoria and to be happy.

It may very well be that continuing hormones and possibly surgery are the absolute best way to practically treat your dysphoria. That is fine, but without intense, questioning and explorative therapy (not light touch affirming therapy) no amount of medical intervention will make that fear go away and iving in a constant state of fear and anxiety is no way to live.

I hope that therapy can help you come to terms with who you are and help you to live without fear.

Perhaps in time, with that self-acceptance and understanding you can help other young boys and teens who feel as you did to find their way in the world without the need for damaging hormones and surgery.

Perhaps you can reach the point where you can stand shoulder to shoulder with feminists who seek to break down gender stereotypes so in the future boys don't suffer with dysphoria due to constraints imposed by toxic masculinity and a patriarchal society because they can be themselves without judgement.

Perhaps you can become a force for change and join up with like minded trans identifying individuals.

Perhaps you can spend your time fighting for third, unisex, spaces to stop the arguments about single sex spaces sucking all the oxygen out of the room. Stand side by side with those fighting for a fairer world for everyone.

I hope that rather than adding to the toxic culture that screams insults and threatens violence to women standing up for their rights you can help to show that there is a better, different way which can improve life for everyone.

But regardless of whether you choose to vocally campaign or just live a quiet life surrounded by people who love you, I hope you manage to find peace and happiness.

You're not trying to be a boy though. You are male and no amount of trying will turn you into anything other than that.

I'm autistic. No amount of masking will make me neurotypical. I live the life with the cards I was dealt despite often facing significant challenges.

Self acceptance, often via therapy, eventually brings peace of mind. Trying to be a square peg in a round hole does not. Claiming you are a woman when you are a biological male will not encourage self acceptance and peace of mind.

You will never be a woman. Just as I will never be neurotypical. We just have to mould the shoes to the shape of our feet.

If a man has surgery and has hormone treatment to trans to a woman they ARE a woman.suggesting they are otherwise is disgusting and disrespectful.

Obviously they aren't. This level of scientific illiteracy is very concerning.

If everyone's personal opinions are irrelevant there is no point in having a discussion. And might I point out that your entire post is your personal opinion! Why is my opinion of no interest yet yours is somehow highly important? Like I said - absolutely ridiculous.

I won't respond again as I don't want to derail the thread any further but will just say- I'm GC but have a lot more sympathy with trans people than I do with my fellow GCers at times. It's sad the debate has sunk so low and no real discussion or compromise seems possible.

I can see why men would like to wear make up, get a womens hairstyles, wear skirts.

I can also see why some men would like to get breasts.

I can also see why some men would want to be in toilets and changing rooms with girls and young women.

None of it is about being a woman. Its all about being a man.

I'm not sure trans people are able.to 'take.in' or 'exclude' other trans people, though?

Anyone who says they're trans, is trans. I mean, there really aren't any criteria.

"For instance, a rapist who did not claim to be trans until they were arrested should never be considered for a female prison."

No. They should not have been considered for a female prison. However, no male prisoner should be considered for a female prison. Because they are male.

It is not just for safety that they should not be considered for female prison, it is for female prisoner's welfare and privacy and dignity too.

There are many reasons. For instance, in an argument that turned physical a female prisoner has a much greater risk of serious injury if a male prisoner is violent. Simply going by past behaviour is not a good enough gauge as to whether a male prisoner is going to get violent in prison.

There was a female prisoner who complained about the behaviour of a male prisoner who would leave the shower curtain completely open while that male prisoner was showering so that all the female prisoners had to pass them.

Just because a male hasn't been convicted of a sex crime, doesn't make that male prisoner one who has a history that a 'case by case' assessment will pick up. The only way to keep female prisoners safe from any unwanted behaviour by male prisoners, is to keep male prisoners out of female prisons.

I think you are aiming for a 'moderate' approach, but the reality has shown that there is no way to protect female people except full exclusion from prisons, rape centres and refuges, and sports that you mention. Sports also has been very well analysed by the experts who state very clearly that there is no 'case by case' solution that works.

Also, 'case by case' requires someone to arbitrate who can and cannot be discriminated against. It is highly discriminatory in nature. Who is the arbiter? How is it done? It is a lovely theory, but it always fails on a practical level.

And it discriminates. By its very nature it means that one male person is considered somehow more deserving than another and that that arbiter has to reward those 'more deserving'.

No, I wouldn't. If males were allowed in female prisons at all, they'd need to have had the surgery and hormones and all that, and the GRC, before conviction.

Agreed. The question is exactly how it should work - how we can have people who are not, in law, the sex that they are in actual fact, whilst still protecting women against that minority of trans women who are a danger to us. It's a tricky issue; I don't see easy answers. Which is why it's important to not shut down debate.

I actually think the impossibility of the goal is part of the attraction, tbh.

WHAT’S IT CALLED?

Do you have a fanny?
Or do you have a foof?
Do you call it cunt?
Or are you more aloof?

Do you use its Sunday name,
and call it a vagina?
Or maybe call it Coco,
after the designer.

If you are a woman
then you definitely have a vag.
There’s no need to announce
it with a pronoun badge.

But if you are a man
and you think you too have one,
what you have is a bonus hole
made from penis or colon.

Boiledbeetle 26th August 2023

Absolutely this^^

What case is that?

So no confirmation of whether they respect women's single sex spaces?

Says everything really.

100% this! Live in a way that makes you happy & productive. I hope you remain healthy and mostly regret-free (we all have regrets).

But don't force those around you to drop their boundaries or give up their rights. There is no hierarchy of rights.

And don't require that your individual personal belief that you are actually the other sex, is used to force the rest of society to change in accordance with your individual personal belief.

What support are you getting for your mental health, because it seems to me that some of the things you say you are scared of are illogical and are something you need to try to work through. No one can actually force you to use male titles and pronouns, and how many times anyway do you use pronouns when speaking about yourself? There is unfortunately nothing you can do about determining how other people address you or refer to you either face to face or behind your back, and you will need to develop strategies to deal with this. You will also need to address your fear of using male spaces, because unless you are able to accept that women don’t want you in womens spaces then your life is going to be very constrained.

If you are brave enough to face surgery which will be initially painful and will then require life long maintenance, then you need to be brave enough to start to address your fears, because changing your body physically is not going to deal with your current mental distress.

Excellent. Maybe you can answer this then.

What exactly is the difference between a male who has had their penis and testicles removed due to injury or disease and a male person who elects to have them removed for their identity?

You tell 'em, Judge! 😂

I know of 3 Trans women who had the OP.
One was stunning even pre-op.
However she got beat up by men who found out the truth in the bedroom.
She ended up with wigs as lost hair.
Her vagina ended up needing major surgery 6 times.
One was never going to pass, is still resentful of this fact, had the OP , suddenly no one was willing to date her, she screamed cried , and went militant.
Also needed extra surgery.
The 3rd was allowed to have the OP. Her mum gets abuse as they live together, treads a typerope to keep her child happy.
Not one of these people got the result they had been promised....

A lot of the issues with this debate have arisen from women 'losing' rights in order to make way for trans women (ie rape crisis centres, women's sports, trans women in female prisons etc) which should be assessed on a case to case basis, rather than under blanket laws. For instance, a rapist who did not claim to be trans until they were arrested should never be considered for a female prison.

But a rapist who has claimed to be trans for years should be considered?

The case by case is about the situation, not the male individual. So any service or opportunity that is female only excludes all males by default. Not as you are suggesting - that someone has to determine which men get to box women, go into womens prisons or follow girls into female changing rooms.

What exactly is the difference between a male who has had their penis and testicles removed due to injury or disease and a male person who elects to have them removed for their identity though?

And can you clarify if you think that some male people who you consider 'genuinely' trans should have access to any female single sex provision, ie. toilets, changing rooms, women's shelters, female rape crisis groups, prisons, sports anything? And if not, what does it matter whether a male has had their penis and testes removed?

Quite

The NHS know this very well and will eventually call OP for prostrate checks and rather than for pap smears.

Biological sex matters. It’s not a social or linguistic construct

So... one poster said something you didn't like so you despair because the debate is 'toxic'??
In every cross-section of posts there are going to be some that you don't like because you disagree with the, or you think the reply has misrepresented you [as seems to be the case here].
If you then define the whole debate as toxic because of this, your bar for toxicity must be low. This has not been a toxic discussion; overall it has been positive, thoughtful, sensible and often sensitive to the OP, who has received lots of good wishes for the future.