Darling sister and pronouns

[CheeseFromTheNorth]

I know this has cropped up many times, the sense of sadness when a close family member or friend seems to have joined the #bekind brigade.
Had a forwarded email from my sister who lives in another country, from her work address and she used pronouns in her email signature.
I don't understand it. She is all for social justice (Aboriginal rights) across the board and proclaims to be a feminist.
I won't have a conversation about this with her until I see her in person. But when I do my line will be something along the lines of "I used to respect pronouns, as I saw no harm in it. But as I read more and more about male rapists wanting to be referred to as she/her and all institutions complying with it, I realised that something is very wrong.
Who do I decide "deserves" those pronouns? The trans identifying male that's kind but doesn't pass? The male rapist because he speaks of gender dysphoria, but forces his victim to use language such as "her penis" when testifying in court?
So I've drawn and line and will refer to a man who identifies as a woman by their name".

That's all I would say, it does share my opinion and shows the time line of thinking over the years. I have been overweight for many years (not anymore) so I don't think that me raising the sports issue rings true as a reason for me to be of the anti-pronoun brigade (of course no man should be in women's sports but sports is never something I've been interested in, so it rings false for me to be passionate about it), but I HAVE been sexually assaulted many times, so this is my hill.

Keeping discussions like this light and giving food for thought is the way to go imho.

But what has been troubling me is the "why"? Why has she not looked in to this? She too is a SA survivor and it was a particularly horrendous event that has very badly scarred her.

Sorry for the long post.

Could be that her workplace have dictated that all staff have to include pronouns in their work email signature?

I think quite a lot of us started at the point where your sister is now. We're feminists. Thought it was kind to use chosen pronouns, couldn't see the harm. Then usually something happens that 'peaks' us. For me it was when my DD was 12 and started questioning her gender, my immediate reaction was to affirm and support but then dug a bit and found out that her friends were telling her she must be non binary because she wasn't interested in boys or makeup (at 12!). I then started looking more into it and found this board. I didn't post much but read and read and 'peaked'. I looked into why one of my favourite authors was being called bigoted. Why the guy who wrote some of my favourite comedies (Father Ted, The IT Crowd) was being called bigoted and cancelled.

People come on this board and seem to peak in real-time. Like during the Tickle Vs Giggle case in Australia and more recently during the Fife case.

I think your sister just hasn't got there yet. Hopefully she will soon.

I have a family member who is very much TWAW and I have had some rather delicate conversations. However, I try to avoid the topic these days (or suck it up and gloss over the topic if it is brought up by them). Unfortunately, the recent report (possibly by 'more in common') is correct and the 'Progressive Left' is the most intolerant group towards opinions that they consider to be 'wrong-think' and it just isn't worth it.

I can't have a sensible conversation with someone who thinks that Sarah Summers is unreasonable or that gender critical ideas are fascist ideas. I could definitely cause them to never speak to me again though, and because that would hurt other members of the family, I don't want to do that.

OP, I have female friends who are simply not interested in it . They think it is a non-issue and if work requires them to put pronouns in their emails, then they will. Because it is a non-issue.

If you scratch the surface, you might find that she doesn't believe that anyone can change sex and that a male person should be in any female single sex spaces.

Or, she could be doing this because she fully believes what she has read or has been told and wants to be seen as supportive.

I think that the UK is ahead of quite a few countries. It is certainly a few years ahead of Australia and unfortunately there is a great deal to be done there to reverse the leglislative damage, but it is still not widely discussed or understood. The USA seems to have woken up but it is still behind the UK in the discussion.

I say were seem ahead because the discussion has matured here, and because we have had court cases and instances where the discussion about pronouns has been important. This past few weeks, I have seen more and more people declare that they will not use requested pronouns any more. Because they feel that it has led to people such as Dr Upton now twisting language to define Upton's self as 'biologically female'.

I have said for a while now that the demand for using pronouns is a demand to show compliance to someone's philosophical belief. And what other philosophical belief has society demanded that we all support with dictated language. Can you think of any? So, why is this belief different? Because it was initially informed as a being something that was a diagnosed medical condition.

And I think a few people genuinely believed that people can change sex. But it was never true. Sex is simply not something that changes by castrating a man and giving him oestrogen.

However, over the past years it has even shown that the only thing in common that people with transgender identities have is their belief. Their philosophical belief that they are the opposite sex or no sex or some other of the 130+ genders.

The question really does remain, what other group does society comply with such demands to change the established language conventions to suit that group's belief? Why is this one so special?

(Of course, it is because we have been emotionally manipulated to believe also that this is the most vulnerable and marginalised group on earth.)

I hate wokery and hate pronouns.

What you've said sounds reasonable, OP. As others have said, maybe she just hasn't got there yet.

Thank you for all your replies. Yes it may be that they've been told (or at least 'advised') to use pronouns. And she is a senior so I suppose she has felt that she can't not.
I think other posters are correct in saying that Australia is backwards. I haven't been in years but my sister's daughter is often at protests for something or other so very woke.
Also other posters saying it is something that people don't think about is also true.
I won't cause any sort of rift by broaching it across the hemisphere divide. It's been very useful hearing your thoughts so thankyou

I saw this post recently - the LGBTQ+ dressing up as Aboriginal people for Pride! They have no respect for others, yet demand respect for themselves.

If she doesn't live in the UK and lives in Australia she doesn't had freedom to speak freely on this matter in a work context. The law is seriously fucked up there with no rights for women based on sex, just gender rights.

I won't have a conversation about this with her until I see her in person.

There's no need for you to have a conversation with her about this at all. It's really none of your business. She's not foisting anything on you, or asking you to believe in anything. She doesn't need a lecture just because her firm asks/directs her to put her pronouns on her emails.

ETA my organisation suggest that we do, but it's not compulsory. So I don't. I'm not in favour of it, but I don't believe in lecturing anyone who does, unless they force an issue or start to tell me what I should be doing. Otherwise it can do more harm than good.

She is likely to be treated less well at work by including female pronouns - people are likely to take her less seriously. For years we tried to promote professionalism at work and now women are setting themselves up to be trivialised.

You could just make it clear to your sister that you have no respect for the pronouns she wishes to use and so will be referring to her as 'him/he/his'

OR, you could just-refer to her by the pronouns in her email, which isn't hurting you at all?

Why would the OP use he/him/his for their sister? This suggestion makes no sense to me.

I think you have a sensible plan, OP. There's no need to fall out about this - family is different from friends - but you are right to draw your boundaries. As other posters have said, I expect she hasn't thought too much about it.

Insidelaurashed
The sister is female anyway, so putting she/her in her email signature is redundant. Pronouns are sex-based.

Also putting wrong-sex pronouns in a bio is not telling people which pronouns you use, it's telling other people which pronouns they must use when referring to you. Probably while you are not even present. It's telling them that they must agree that you are not the sex they can see you are. It's overreach and extremely disrespectful to others.

In my family, of many many women and girls, we talk about things that matter to us. She is a very active member of a working group that supports Aboriginal women's rights, so I will raise this when the time is right, because the Australian prison population numbers contain an astounding proportion of indigenous people, this includes the women's prisons and there are men in those prisons.

Totally weird thing to say. She's my sister. I use pronouns when talking about her in the 3rd person because of that, not because of an idiotic email signature.

Sorry… who exactly is it hurting to include pronouns..?

My mother, who is a woman and gave birth to me, out her uterus and through her vagina, struggled all her life with people assuming she was a man. Even when she had long hair and wore skirts. I witnessed it, I witnessed how upset she would be in the evenings with not feeling feminine enough despite trying hard to make it clear.

Being misgendered doesn’t just hurt “the woke alphabet mafia” or whatever shit you want to sprout. It’s actually just nice to be clear and correct. It saves embarrassment for all parties.

Point to me on the doll exactly where these evil pronouns hurt you??

With all due respect, I think you've missed the discourse around this. If you agree with using incorrect sex pronouns you agree that a rape victim has to call her rapist (by U.K. Law the crime of rape involves a penis, not an object) 'she', and the judge will sentence on that crime using the words "her penis".
It is only when women say "NO" to pronouns can we stop this de-humanisation of rape victims.

Or are you happy with the above? Do you believe in the gas-lighting of rape victims?

This thread is swarming with men now, I see. #OperationLetThemSpeak!

When you really think it through, the issues are obvious.

As soon as you concede pronouns, you're agreeing that gender trumps sex from the point of view of how that person is viewed by society. This makes it harder to argue for women's sex based rights.

If you concede a man can be a 'she' it makes it that bit harder to argue that 'she' shouldn't be in a woman's prison.

Consider the difference between these two statements, both referencing a man ...

He went into the woman's changing rooms and took his clothes off in front of the women present.

Or

She went into the woman's changing rooms and took her clothes off in front of the women present.

Most people are going to react differently to those two statements, aren't they? Even though they refer to exactly the same event. That's the difference pronouns make. They distort our language and therefore our perception of what's happening.

And also, read this

fairplayforwomen.com/pronouns/

I have a GC friend currently job hunting in Australia, and she said every single application asks for your pronouns, she’s really struggling with it.

I'm a total sex-realist, but I think this is a huge overreaction. Presumably, your female sister uses she/her pronouns? The fact that she's included them in her email sign-off is worthy of an eye-roll, sure, but she is using the correct pronouns for her sex.

Yeah, can’t imagine how this conversation is meant to go??

”Hello sister, I am very upset and concerned. It seemed you attached the correct female pronouns to your email. To say I alarmed is an understatement. At this rate, I certainly shan’t be having you over at Christmas!”

Get a life OP, find something real to be upset about. God knows there’s plenty going on in the world.

I don't think ending the use of pronouns in email signatures will stop those born male wishing to be known as women, whether or not they are or want to be sex offenders.

What I will defend is my choice not to use them, and incidentally pronouns are not used by the only person I know who was born male and wishes to be known as a woman.