Darling sister and pronouns

[CheeseFromTheNorth]

I know this has cropped up many times, the sense of sadness when a close family member or friend seems to have joined the #bekind brigade.
Had a forwarded email from my sister who lives in another country, from her work address and she used pronouns in her email signature.
I don't understand it. She is all for social justice (Aboriginal rights) across the board and proclaims to be a feminist.
I won't have a conversation about this with her until I see her in person. But when I do my line will be something along the lines of "I used to respect pronouns, as I saw no harm in it. But as I read more and more about male rapists wanting to be referred to as she/her and all institutions complying with it, I realised that something is very wrong.
Who do I decide "deserves" those pronouns? The trans identifying male that's kind but doesn't pass? The male rapist because he speaks of gender dysphoria, but forces his victim to use language such as "her penis" when testifying in court?
So I've drawn and line and will refer to a man who identifies as a woman by their name".

That's all I would say, it does share my opinion and shows the time line of thinking over the years. I have been overweight for many years (not anymore) so I don't think that me raising the sports issue rings true as a reason for me to be of the anti-pronoun brigade (of course no man should be in women's sports but sports is never something I've been interested in, so it rings false for me to be passionate about it), but I HAVE been sexually assaulted many times, so this is my hill.

Keeping discussions like this light and giving food for thought is the way to go imho.

But what has been troubling me is the "why"? Why has she not looked in to this? She too is a SA survivor and it was a particularly horrendous event that has very badly scarred her.

Sorry for the long post.

Agree that not all the pro-pronoun people on this thread are male. I suspect a few have a trans-identified son or brother caught up in the "Not my Nigel" defence and can't move past that to see that they are actively working towards the harm of women and girls.

@Helleofabore
Exactly.
And does anyone actually believe that Eddy Izzard was under immediate threat in the gents loo when he decided to join the queue for the ladies at Euston Station? He'd probably have had a gaggle of blokes after a selfie at worst. Meanwhile, women in that loo were expected to just put up with his presence.

Not to many, it really isn’t. Women are being attacked by people who believe that THEY are able to decide who is male and who is female and are wrong.

You are delusional, and dangerous, if you really believe that you and other women are able to distinguish between a trans woman and a cis woman, at a cursory glance. And anyone who doesn’t meet your “standards” will pay the price for your ignorance.

Of course people are able to distinguish between men and women accurately and quickly. It is an ability that has served us extremely well from an evolutionary standpoint. As has been pointed out, even babies and animals can do it.

No. Recognising who is female. The "decision" about who is female and who is male is made at conception.

Also, women are not being attacked in women's toilets. You have had the opportunity to provide evidence of this and have not done so. Some women are being challenged. This is not new, but it may be happening more frequently because of more male people trying their luck.

At this point there is no value in continuing to engage with you, so this is for lurkers:

Genderists think that beauty or degree of femininity determines womanhood. "Look at this gorgeous, busty, feminine TW," they say - "how can you say she should use men's facilities?"
We say they should, or at least should not use women's facilities, because the person is male. How pretty they are is irrelevant.

And yet they complain to us that when it comes to women's facilities, we are judging women on their femininity or beauty. We're not judging femininity - we're demarcating a boundary on the line of sex. It is not difficult. People, especially women, can tell men and women apart. This ability is innate and unconscious, based on many sex characteristics. It's not based on gender stereotypes, though gender presentation or stereotypes can muddy the waters initially.

It's as if conflating sex and gender has literally left genderists incapable of de-conflating and understanding the difference. Even if you think GI is sex or is more important than, you ought to be able to understand the categorical difference between biological sex characteristics (brow ridge, gait, hip-to-shoulder ratio) and gender presentation or stereotypes.

Just been reading all this. I'm just astonished at your lack of clear understanding about the difference between sex and how someone presents.

Do you really not understand that there is a material difference between male and female people? All the crime statistics in the world are clear about this.

Do you really believe that there is a horde of women going around policing the appearance of women to make sure they are feminine enough and physically attacking them when they don't approve of their appearance??

Maybe it happens in the USA ???? I just don't understand where you have got this from, and where the evidence is.

Women are more likely to attack other women than trans women are???? I think you made that up to fit your narrative of a gang of rabid middle aged feminists going round physically attaching non-feminine looking women in toilets. Would love to see the crime statistics for this.

Do you have no understanding at all what feminism was about when it first emerged?

There is no right or wrong way to be female. Being female encompasses any style or presenation you like because being female is about biology, not presentation.

Anyone on high alert in the toilets is worried about male people, not worried about masculine presenting female people. And if anyone challenges a masculine looking female person because they thought they might be male, it really doesn't take much (speaking usually does it) to reassure them.

Yes, we can tell the difference between trans women and women most of the time - please don't patronise everyone by suggesting we don't know any trans women, have never met any, it's just silly.

You think it's "silly" that I have a teenage daughter, who has been completely traumatised by grown women, attacking her in a public toilet, on several occasions, from the age of 8, so much so that she refuses to use public toilets or gendered changing rooms. You think it's "silly" that my gay friend recently got hospitalised by a group of women, after being mistaken for a man? You think it's "silly" that another gay friend is almost a recluse, after being shouted at in the street, for "cheating" in a strong womens strength competition?
Give your head a wobble. These are women being badly affected by the horrendous rhetoric being poured by people like you! The original feminists would be ashamed to have their names linked with you.

It's a well established fact. YEARS of scientific evidence.

Dangerous and delusional that you are fantasising we can't. Flying in the face of facts. And projecting yet again.

It's fucking embarrassing that you don't know this. I have no idea what planet you're living on. I'm afraid ALL the evidence disagrees with you. If you wish to live in a fantasy, cult universe, that is up to you, but I'm afraid the rest of us live in the real world where little things like facts and evidence matter. Your hyperbole is ridiculous. You are making yourself look extremely silly.

Sure. (nods sagely).

You are talking crap and you know it.

As I said, literally all the EVIDENCE disagrees with you. But please do continue living in your silly fantasy world.

Meanwhile, the rest of us will give a shit about women's rights. Do please carry on trying to dismantle them if you wish but smarter women than you will continue fighting you all the way. And we're winning, I'm afraid.

This person is either lying for effect or extremely poorly educated.

As you say, the facts and evidence are widely available and have been known for many years. Thankfully, most of us don't live in fantasy-land and don't find it difficult to understand facts and statistics - nor to distinguish between fact and belief.

I’m sorry, did you just say that females cannot commit rape?

And yet, I did not say anything about a ‘cursory glance’. I was rather clear about the interaction being beyond a ‘cursory glance’.

However in saying that, I have failing distance sight and find myself correctly identifying male people’s sex despite fuzzy focus, because without the distraction, my brain can make that identification. A lot of it is based on skeletal movement.

You, personally, may not have confidence that you can do it, not everyone can, but I am pretty confident these days. And then if I am close up and can hear a voice, great.

And no. I am not the ‘dangerous’ or the ‘ignorant’ one on this thread at all. That feels like projection to me.

Yes.

In UK law, they literally can't. Because in UK law, rape requires a penis. There could be situations where a woman is involved in perpetrating a rape, such as by holding down the victim so a male can rape her. This is, of course, vanishingly rare.

Sorry, are you unfamiliar with the law on this?

Just to reiterate, the statistics (and they are replicated globally) demonstrate that 99% of ALL sexual assaults are committed by males (males who id as female are included in that number. Since the evidence shows that they are no less likely than other males to commit sexual assault).

Over 80% of the victims of male sexual violence are female.The actual kind. It's kind of why it tends to be such a concern for women.Also is the reason why single sex spaces in certain circumstances have long been a key tenet of women's human rights legislation. See Elizabeth Fry and prison form, for instance, see the Geneva Convention, Mandela Rules and so on and so forth...

You can't be unaware of this, surely? Very weird if so.

I suspect your sister is just doing what is expected of her on her work email signature.
I would forget about it and not waste the precious time you have together debating this unless it’s something you would both enjoy.
Sometimes we have to pick our battles and work and at home.
I think it should be an acceptable compromise to use they/ them or avoid pronouns altogether so the accused pushed the accused penis into me

Oh, don't worry, it absolutely is projection. Along with a giant helping of gaslighting and DARVO.

As per fucking usual. EVERY bloody time.

Getting VERY boring now. Still, useful for people to observe the same old tactics being tried. Yet again.

As I said, it's what you have to do when your "movement" has zero integrity or facts behind it. Carry on, do. Let more and more people see it for the bullshit it is.

No, that's not what I said was silly.

I said you were silly to suggest that women can't tell the difference betwen trans women and women most of the time.

A trans woman can have a penis

That's because they're a man.

Enough of these ridiculous language games. No woman has had or ever will have a penis. You know this as well as anyone,

That's why they need to stay out of our spaces

What about intersex women? :)

All those with DSDs are either male or female. No biological woman has male sex organs 🙄

Unlikely to be able to have an erection, low testosterone

Oh dear, we’re now scraping the barrel by dragging DSDs, which have nothing to do with trans, into the mix.

You do know that "intersex" is an outdated term? No?

No, of course you don't. You're clueless.

I suggest you do a little more research on DSDs (Disorders or Differences of Sexual Development), as they have been known for several years.

No woman has a penis, I'm afraid.

There are various DSDs.The sufferers of which are all either biologically male or female, since DSDs are all on either a male or female pathway.

Keep up. Or anyone might think you're poorly educated and not aware of the facts.