Does anyone else resent the gender/ TERF wars?

[TERFCat]

I met up with an old friend last night. The first two hours were magical! Everything was going great until the "what is a woman?" question popped up... Then, it all turned sour, and I don't think she and I will be catching up again for a long time.

Basically, whilst I think women's rights are paramount and should be defended whenever necessary, I'm really starting to resent the impact this had on my real life.

I have lost friends over this, and I've likely been stopped from making more too!

Does anyone else feel this way?

Well I'm very glad you find discussion about the rights of rape victims so amusing. That really says a lot.

I believe women deserve single sex spaces. I don't believe transgender people should be forced into spaces they feel uncomfortable in and I think a lot of people would also be uncomfortable seeing a person presenting as the opposite sex in their single sex spaces. Therefore I think a third space should be available

And I hope you realise this is basically the view of 99% of regulars who post here. So you're actually a big bad TERF after all.

Ah more insults.

Do you have anything useful to say or you just going to keep insulting me? It shows a lack of intelligence and and anger problem.

Insults? No, just the truth. Telling a rape survivor she has an 'anger problem' (you're truly obsessed with this) because she was traumatised and upset by your post is what is truly insulting. If you ever had anything useful to say that wasn't full of misogynistic invective it would be a first.

You haven't been clear on your stance up to now though, either here or in past posts. So it's not wholly surprising that people didn't understand your beliefs.

I believe women deserve single sex spaces. I don't believe transgender people should be forced into spaces they feel uncomfortable in and I think a lot of people would also be uncomfortable seeing a person presenting as the opposite sex in their single sex spaces. Therefore I think a third space should be available in the form of unisex facilities such as single occupancy rooms with lockable doors rather than open changing rooms or toilets with cubicles.

Yes, a third space perhaps "should" be available. But currently, third spaces are generally not available. So what do we do now? What happens now? Posters on here are concerned about the now. Not the would-be-nice-to-have-in-the-future-when-we-get-round-to-it. The situation as it stands now. Today.

What do you think ought to happen now?

The irony of course is that it is us 'mean feminists' that have been advocating for third spaces for years, but these poor transwomen who apparently 'can't live in peace' that have said no to it.

If these transwomen wanted to live in peace, WHY don't they agree to third spaces then?

I love the way posters like you think you're unique.

You aren't

I've seen this exact take so many times before. You've been tackled robustly and you then switch tack to trying to take the moral high ground over 'tone'

Remember ladies, you need to find exactly the right register to voice your points before anyone will even listen to you. Got it?

Meanwhile, on the other side of the debate, no objections to this kind of thing

terfisaslur.com

For example, this was your first post on this thread, I think?

Nowhere here do you say "I believe women deserve single sex spaces". If you had made that clear it would have avoided a lot of misinterpretation.

Of course posters on here are going to jump in based on what you wrote in that post.

It is an anger problem when you repeatedly shout HOW FUCKING DARE YOU and the cheek of you and more insults at a stranger. I know how trauma works, it's not a free pass to treat people like this. This is abusive behaviour. A lot of abusers suffered abuse before they abused other people, damaged people do awful things. That doesn't make it acceptable.

I'm done arguing with you, I won't be replying again. Stop harassing me.

I suggested they might like to write - and then perform - plays. Seems like an extension of larping, since you say people write scripts for it. I also like to be out and doing things - lovely time walking round Derbyshire just recently. That I write doesn't stop me doing that.

No, I do not think I am unique. I don't know why you're crowing in superiority over another assumption that is not true. Not wanting online abuse directed at you is quite normal behaviour and very average.

Screaming HOW FUCKING DARE YOU repeatedly and using slurs against someone is not "robust tackling". It's straight up abuse. If it were form 'the other side' you would be screen shitting it and sharing it here as proof than all transgender people are violent abusive people. You're being disingenuous and you know it.

A woman having a one-off trauma response is not an 'anger problem'. I am sick of your abusive gaslighting, please leave me alone.

I agree with what Grammarnut says, Glitterknickerbockers - I am very sorry you were raped. Survivors react differently, and for many, the safety of a single-sex space which is actually single sex, i.e. does not have biological males, is an absolute necessity.

You say you agree with the need for single sex spaces; but do you accept that the category 'biological males' includes your lovely trans friends, and that logically they too must be excluded from women's spaces? Or is that proof of us being cruel and insulting, as you asserted in your first post?

I said in an earlier post that far from tying myself up in knots, I have a very simple and straightforward take on all this: in humans, sex is binary and immutable. To claim otherwise is to be factually incorrect.

If your trans friends were born male, they still are male, no matter how they dress or present themselves socially. They are welcome to live their quiet lives as lovely men dressing and behaving in a non-conforming way - I'm all in favour of men and women smashing gender stereotypes - but claiming to actually be women is not only factually incorrect, it crosses a line and a lot of women are very resistant to that, and as you have found out, some women are extremely angry about that.

Surely it would be helpful, not cruel or insulting, if more gender-questioning young people were told directly
'You will always be the sex you were born into, it is not possible to change it, there is nothing wrong with your body, there is no mismatch between your brain and the rest of your body, you are you from head to toe, from inside out - now what can we do to help you feel OK about the body you have, so you can live your best life as you really are.'

I know that would have helped me when I was younger; perhaps it would help men like your trans friends accept at a young age that they are actually men and can never be women, and live their best lives without claiming to be something they are not?

Please note- as in the majority of posts from 'us-all', there are no insults or slurs, just comments and questions.

Leave you alone!? 😂

You're the one thats been getting at me for going on two days!! You could have just not gone off on one at me in the first place!

How does it compare to this abuse?

https://terfisaslur.com

Or you could have just not gaslit rape survivors and made out that males are victims who can't get peace in the first place!

I massively resent this whole movement. I don’t believe ANYONE truly believes TWAW so it’s beyond frustrating that it’s even a topic of discussion, nevermind that it’s been weaponised so successfully to destroy women’s rights. The whole thing is so dark.

The people that frustrate me the most are those that are vocal about VAWG yet seem to think men in dresses are zero risk because…well, why? It hurts my head because there’s zero logic to their stance, their insistence of the ridiculous makes me feel like the whole world is trolling!

Normally I’m a live and let live sort, even if I don’t agree with someone I can usually see where they’re coming from - but on this, none of it make sense - like it’s been deliberately orchestrated to cause maximum confusion. It feels very sinister that you have large swathes of people arguing that red is now blue and if you don’t agree you are a shitty person. Insane.

💯this. I agree completely.

There are more than one group of victims in the world. The fact that women have suffered abuse does not mean that trans women have not been victims of abuse, or that their abuse is deserved, or less important. It's not oppression top trumps. The fact that that enrages you is not my problem.

Now please, stop harassing me.

I believe women deserve single sex spaces. I don't believe transgender people should be forced into spaces they feel uncomfortable in and I think a lot of people would also be uncomfortable seeing a person presenting as the opposite sex in their single sex spaces. Therefore I think a third space should be available in the form of unisex facilities such as single occupancy rooms with lockable doors rather than open changing rooms or toilets with cubicles.

post that on a trans board and see the response. I mean honestly do you really think that hasn’t been suggested numerous times already over the years? It’s always shot down by TRA

its not the spaces, it’s the women in the spaces. A women’s changing room without women in it is just a room. The room has to have the women in it in order for TRA to feel validated that’s why they don’t want third spaces

I agree that this feels like a huge 'top down' exercise in manipulating public opinion and for the life of me, I can't fathom how they pulled it off.

I came across this piece, which is immensely long and bits of it not at all relevant to the point in hand.

I struggle with a lot of what its saying, but it illuminates how this might be carried off.

If anyone has the time to go through it I'd love to know what you think.

https://www.tabletmag.com/feature/rapid-onset-political-enlightenment

Absolutely they do, but not at the expense of women. That’s all any of us believe. Yet women are being called bigots and having to fight for their rights because they want single-sex rape counselling services to be actually single sex. Even when there are also male and trans-inclusive services available some trans women still insist on coming to women’s groups which means some women have to exclude themselves from getting the support they need. Is that fair?

"I'm done arguing with you, I won't be replying again."

I haven't harassed you at all Glitterknickerbockers - why have you chosen to ignore my posts?
It seems that you prefer to keep referring one poster, while ignoring all the rest of us with our reasonable comments and questions.

I suppose its easier to do that rather than taking reasonable comments and questions on board, and giving them due consideration - not necessarily agreeing with them, that's your right, but it looks you're just batting away anything too challenging, no matter how politely expressed.

Not enclosed cubicles in a unisex setting however, since that is likely to increase assaults on women (such facilities account for 90% of such assaults according to Gov stats). An actual third space alonside sex-segregated facilites (and not the disabled space, either).
@Glitterknickerbockers does not appear to understand what GC means.