Does anyone else resent the gender/ TERF wars?

[TERFCat]

I met up with an old friend last night. The first two hours were magical! Everything was going great until the "what is a woman?" question popped up... Then, it all turned sour, and I don't think she and I will be catching up again for a long time.

Basically, whilst I think women's rights are paramount and should be defended whenever necessary, I'm really starting to resent the impact this had on my real life.

I have lost friends over this, and I've likely been stopped from making more too!

Does anyone else feel this way?

I know you are not supporting males in female single sex spaces. I understood that you understand that just because a male person doesn’t have a penis anymore doesn’t remove their risk for committing violence, including sex crimes, against female people.

I was supporting you.

The difference is that those who have their penis and testes removed are no different to other men in my view. Because having them removed doesn’t change anything except that they no longer have a penis and testes. As you say, they don’t change sex.

Again, shouting and swearing, using slurs and personal insults and accusing a SA survivor of lying is not robust challenging. It is abusive behaviour. I have seen Helle claim that simply using the laugh emoji is abusive yet you call this behaviour robust challenging instead of what it is? Hypocrisy at it's finest.

The abuse I have been 'banging on about' my friends suffering is not from keyboard warriors, it's having things shouted at them in the street by 'proud terfs', physical abuse from both men and women and one was horrifically raped by a man, in a male toilet because he wanted to know what "having sex with a with a lady with a dick" was like. A key example of why trans women are not safe in male spaces. Using transphobic slurs in everyday conversation because it is your right to not be kind only reinforces attitudes that this behaviour towards trans people is acceptable. Of course no one here has actually asked about this abuse or gives a shit as long as they stay out of your changing rooms and you can keep attacking people who have a problem with this behaviour.

Yes. Using the laughing emoji reaction on a post can be abusively used. There is little to be said to defend using it in that way.

Swearing? No. I don’t believe swearing is an act of abusive. It can be used to amplify abuse when attached to name calling. Such as ‘you are an ‘x’. A fucking ‘x’’ when x = a recognised slur. But simply swearing in a post is not abusive.

You came on here telling us we were awful people long before that poster responded to you. You know that. Yet you keep trying to use it as a distraction c,

None of us would condone criminal behaviour towards your friends. Why on earth would you think we would?

You have not demonstrated any clear criteria in identifying 'transphobic slurs' rather than blunt truth telling. If I call a man a man, it seems that that is a 'transphobic slur' in your eyes. Right?

@Glitterknickerbockers So you're angry at posters on here for defending women's rights and spaces because your male friend was a victim of a MALE crime?

The attack you describe is obviously horrendous, but it's a male crime. And yet you're angry at women here??

And this:
Using transphobic slurs in everyday conversation because it is your right to not be kind only reinforces attitudes that this behaviour towards trans people is acceptable.

Please do explain the link between these so-called "transphobic slurs" and the male crime of rape, perpetrated by a male in a male space. And how women not "being kind" reinforces this disgusting male behaviour and somehow makes women responsible for them?

“it's having things shouted at them in the street by 'proud terfs',”

Really? Please give details. Plus how it was known these were ‘proud terfs’. Context is important here.

And any physical abuse should be reported to the police as it is a chargeable offence.

physical abuse from both men and women and one was horrifically raped by a man, in a male toilet because he wanted to know what "having sex with a with a lady with a dick" was like. A key example of why trans women are not safe in male spaces.

So men raping other men - what's that got to do with gender critical women? Can you not even see what you're doing here?

And you yourself agreed that women should have the right to their own single sex spaces. Are you reneging on that?

Why would men being unsafe because of the actions of other men be women's problem to solve? Why aren't you channelling your energy into campaigning for third spaces?

So, to recap ... Men raping other men is a crime women are somehow culpable in. Because we refuse to lie and say these men are women.

Have I understood that correctly @Glitterknickerbockers ?

“one was horrifically raped by a man, in a male toilet because he wanted to know what "having sex with a with a lady with a dick" was like. A key example of why trans women are not safe in male spaces”

It is an example of the risk that many male people experience in male single sex spaces.

It is and never was a reason to allow one group of male people into the female single sex spaces. It was, and still is a reason to have extensive campaigning to make sure male people are safe in their single sex toilets. Which to my knowledge has never been done.

People are just expecting you to join the dots @Glitterknickerbockers but you are clearly struggling to do that.

The sexual assault I experienced in a public toilet is the reason I don't want men in women's toilets. Any men. It's not difficult to understand!

There is no logic behind allowing any group of vulnerable male people access single sex provisions.

That logic relies on those male people vulnerable to male attack are a) not male too and b) all those groups should be given access to a female single sex space in the lack of a mixed sex option being available.

Again, the logic is flawed and relies on emotionally manipulative tactics to convince others and false information such as ‘those male people are ‘inbetween’ sexes.

Yup, I think you have. Women are culpable for everything.

The sexual assault I experienced in a public toilet is the reason I don't want men in women's toilets. Any men. It's not difficult to understand!

Quoting myself here! 👆But just wanted to add I am so sick of women having to use their own experiences of assault/rape to justify why they don't want men in women's toilets.
I have just done that above and I've chosen to do it and I'm comfortable with that. But not all women will be or should be. And that's enough! Just "no" is enough. We don't have to explain ourselves or describe a traumatic experience. These are OUR spaces. No is enough.

No is enough.

I remember a poster who goaded the thread that they believed no one had been abused by a male person with a transgender identity before. And of course, many of us have. I am sorry that you feel you have to do this grey. I know of others who have too. I have been abused by male people with transgender identities but not assaulted. It takes some fucking entrenched thinking to believe that women are just speaking from hate.

But I guess if you have allowed yourself to be convinced that they have, I guess you feel free to demonise those who reject your beliefs.

@Greyskybluesky i agree with you. I am so tired of telling people about my sexual assault as an 11 year old girl in a changing room. I am sick of having to dredge it up and what’s worse is the countless other women on here with the same stories having to do the same. If we open up our spaces to men who say they are women so they can avoid the male facilities who next? Feminine gay men? Men who are smaller and weigh less? Then where? Mental health facilities? Prisons? How do we police which are the safe men and which are the predators saying they need access to our spaces? We can’t. So we say NO MALES.

and one was horrifically raped by a man, in a male toilet because he wanted to know what "having sex with a with a lady with a dick" was like. A key example of why trans women are not safe in male spaces.

Others have got here before me with this. A male crime towards another male. Why do you think it's a problem for women to solve?

I agree with every word @UrsulasHerbBag 👏

I don't mind telling people about my experience. But I really, REALLY don't think any woman should have to describe this about herself if she doesn't want to. Like some kind of "evidence" or justification FFS.

I'm ok doing that particularly in real life because to be honest I like to see people's reactions. I was having a conversation with a TWAW be-kinder person recently and it was all so theoretical. So I thought I'd bring reality into it. My reality. To make that person really think.
My right to not be kind, as it's been called above.

There was a meme about males needing safety from other males. Can't find the image but the words were:

'If women don't require single sex spaces to be safe from men, why do trans-women need access to single sex spaces to be safe from men?'

And 'proud terfs'?

In the same thread as demonising women for using offensive language.

'If women don't require single sex spaces to be safe from men, why do trans-women need access to single sex spaces to be safe from men?'

And this is another logic trap that those who attempt to leverage males into female single sex spaces don't understand.

Along with, 'any predator can just walk into that space'. err... no shit Sherlock. And therefore if any predator can just walk in, then logically it is also not safe for those male people either.

So, why are they seeking security in a space that is so open to predators?? Do they really think that that logic holds up? Or do they believe that female people are protective shields for real?

When you start scrutinising the arguments, they all seem to crumble.

@Glitterknickerbockers on the one hand you say "I believe women deserve single sex spaces"

while on the other you say "Of course no one here has actually asked about this abuse or gives a shit as long as they stay out of your changing rooms and you can keep attacking people who have a problem with this behaviour"

So you do think women should have single sex spaces? But at the same time you're criticising posters here for wanting single sex spaces?
It's contradictory.

This is the point. There are other groups of male people who are just as vulnerable, in my opinion. But who are disregarded in the ideological attempt to leverage some male people into female toilets.

Gay male people.
Young male people.
Elderly male people.
Physically frail or weak male people.

There are so many others. All side lined in this attempt to somehow create a theory to support one group’s access to female single sex space.

Because of those other groups are so unsafe that they need to be also moved for protection, there needs to be something desperately done to make all male spaces safe for all male people.

I think it is worth noting, in a very factual way, that @Glitterknickerbockers did not clarity their support of women's single sex spaces until quite a way into the thread.

Their opening gambit was very much focused on the awful TERFs and her lovely, harmless transwomen friends. Which Glitter does not know (it transpired much later) if they use women's spaces or not.

It is contradictory. As is many arguments that we see from a small number of posters who rely on emotion to convince people that some male people are deserving of special considerations above other male people.

The point is, why is it relevant for us to ‘actually’ ask. Why is it relevant to the discussion about female single sex spaces? It is not. Unless you are invested in believing that female people should allow male people access or should simply acquiesce to having no single sex spaces and having their spaces made into mixed sex.

It is all part of that emotional reasoning, isn’t it? emotional reasoning can be powerful when combined with evidence and logic. But without the evidence or even logic, it is merely attempting to distract from an incohesive argument.

I agree and I believe the thread would have taken a different turn if Glitterknickerbockers had been clearer from the start.

As I said to them at the time:
You haven't been clear on your stance up to now though, either here or in past posts. So it's not wholly surprising that people didn't understand your beliefs.

The poster has been open about their opinion of "the FWR crowd" and I think there's an intention to not be wholly clear (or omit important details), sit back and watch people misinterpret one's position and get angry about it and then use that as "proof" one was correct all along about the FWR crowd.