NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #10

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and is expected to continue for 2 weeks. The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton started giving evidence on Thursday 6 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely can be obtained by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9

I was only able to listen in so can't verify this:

https://x.com/mrmalky/status/1888972937924890772?s=46

"Even on his way out of Courtroom 4 for a short break in proceedings Dr Upton tries to intimidate NC
He's a class A bully..."

https://x.com/mrmalky/status/1888976511094464709?s=46

"He did the angry stare over NC's seated position"

https://x.com/mrmalky/status/1889003228538314900?s=46

"... He was unaware he was on camera"

Did anyone who watch see the same?

Dear God, how awful. I'd assume if I sent in a patient with a suspected stroke that this would be managed appropriately. This is very unsettling.

That's true, but Minor Injuries/Out of Hours sent me there "because they have a slit lamp". I was told that I absolutely had to go to A&E.

I was kept there until the next morning and discharged. Not even advice as to where I could find an on-duty optometrist. As I've said above, the senior doctor's main concern was emptying A&E so that staff could go home early. (I heard him very clearly, together with everything that he said about other patients. So much for privacy.)

@Sothatsalrighthen I'm sorry to hear about your illness

Yes this for me is a hard line. It’s like those surveys of American students - if you don’t actually use the nasty rape word, around 15% will admit to having sex with a woman who didn’t want it.

Consent is one of those fundamentals of the doctor/patient relationship. If DU states in open evidence that he would go ahead with an intimate exam where the consent for that is predicated on the clinician being female then that is assault. And for me, crosses the line from sheer incredulity to GMC reportable.

Senior A&E dr should be able to do this tbf. Although, at least yrs ago when I still worked in hospitals, there was overnight ophthalmology cover so the ophthalmology specialist would come in if A&E couldn't assess and the problem couldn't wait until morning, or would give advice over the phone and see in clinic the next day if it could wait.

That is a good point. My skin was crawling. By the legal definition I felt harrassed: intimidated, threatened. He was spot on - someone doesn't need to scream or shout to intimidate - he was the embodiment of that

I find it really, really hard to believe that he thinks Sandie is the only woman who has felt horribly uncomfortable having to get undressed near him.

One in four of us have been raped. One in three of us have been sexually assaulted. Such an obvious male looming over any of us is going to make even the most ardent supporter of gender ideology feel vulnerable.

He stinks of male privilege.

So Maya proved that gender critical views were worthy of respect.
Is this the tribunal that will prove gender ideology isn't worthy of respect. After listening to him today, surely at some point that has to be argued. Why did NHSFife think his beliefs were worthy of respect?

I'm still upset about DH. They had him in there for 4 hours before they gave him a scan.

When the senior doc came on duty, he began to ask when DH had gone to bed "We're trying to establish when the stroke happened..."

"It was 7.30 this morning..."

"Are you sure?"

"Yes! He was up and about. Came back to bed for a morning cuppa and then it happened. Look - there's the time on my phone!"

Next thing, they were rushing him to get his scan. The young doctor had thought it was "only a TIA" because DH could speak sensibly. When he came in, he couldn't move his left arm at all (and couldn't sit up or walk) but some movement came back after about an hour, though he still couldn't manage the "Touch your nose" test - he aimed, but kept missing.

When the results came back, the senior doc phoned the stroke consultant. She told him it was his call as to whether they risked the clotbuster. They went with giving him an aspirin.

DH was sent to the Acute Stroke Ward when he fell out of bed because he was left on his own - he'd forgotten he couldn't walk and needed the toilet.

In the stroke ward, DH acquired a UTI through not getting enough water. He was accused of not cooperating by refusing to eat. He wasn't refusing. The stroke hit him fairly centrally. He had one arm that wouldn't work and one that shook.

Oh yes - he was also diabetic. When - at my insistence - they got in one of the the diabetic nurses, she told them that his sugar levels were far too high. (Apparently, this is common in stroke victims. The stuff in the stroke ward were berating me that they didn't want to get the blame if DH didn't eat enough and had a hypo.)

When he was finally admitted to rehab a fortnight later, the staff at Cameron Hospital looked at me in an accusatory manner and asked why he was black down one side.

Cameron was very good. After being there for more than 3 months, DH learned to walk again. However, when they first saw DH, they seemed to think that he was a victim of DV.

Based on today's performance, he will have an answer ready for this. For sure. Some little slippery nugget that will pass between the paragraphs of the GMC and legal guidance without touching leaving us bemused and his patients assaulted

She also told the tribunal that Dr Searle sent an email to consultants on December 29, presenting the "second respondent as the victim and the claimant as the bully before any investigation had taken place", which Ms Cunningham described as "an act of discrimination".

You know this way of working and believing the man is all starting to seem very NHS and not just an aberrant one off.

I was abused bullied and harrassed by a male member of NHS staff. It takes patients up to three days to get their complaint voicemail returned, yet the man who abused me got a datix filled in within an hour of the incident and the Risk Officer declared me the instigator of the bullying and harassment of one of their staff without even looking at my version of the complaint on the NHS's systems. He put a flag on my NHS file that told everyone I was a nasty piece of work. It's currently with the PHSO to investigate their behaviour and how they handled the investigations (plural).

At least the NHS are consistent I suppose, they let bullying male staff bully female staff and patients! But at least I never have to see my abuser again Sandie never knows it she's going to bump into hers.

I find it really, really hard to believe that he thinks Sandie is the only woman who has felt horribly uncomfortable having to get undressed near him.

I don't think there is any reason to believe a single word he says.

Have you seen this...

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-14380901/Health-minister-Ashley-Dalton-women-toilets-LLAMAS-gender.html

I wondered if this is why the judge was swift to bring today to a close, he was presumably alert to the hole DU was digging himself into.

If I liked a bet (and I don't) I think I'd be inclined to say that the health board is going to find it difficult to defend the claim from SP. They and her line manager apparently didn't support her when she originally raised the issue, and they seem to have overreacted in suspending her based on Dr U's complaint.

I'm not so sure about the claim against Dr U. I think much is going to depend on whether KS's evidence is "No I did not give Dr U permission to use the women's changing rooms" or "Yes I did give Dr U permission to use the women's changing rooms".

If the latter Dr U might be able to claim they didn't do anything wrong.

Although I take on board NC's observation earlier today that an employer's authorisation to employee A to act in a certain way does not necessarily mean that A acting in that way could not constitute bullying or harassment by A. But I don't know if that bullying/harassment would then be by A or the employer, or both

(Incidentally - I think pretty much all of Dr U's answers have been total bolleaux, but I don't necessarily think that it's been as damning of Dr U as others seem to think. I'm trying to play Devils' Advocate)

In the novel 1984, George Orwell wrote: “The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command”

He might be adept at spouting transactivist dogma, but he's absolutely fucked when it comes to mainstream media

One in three of us have been sexually assaulted.

I just can't believe it's not more than this.

I don't know if I'm just unlucky but I've been sexually assaulted on numerous occasions in my lifetime by strange men on the street or in bars. Fairly low level (groping) so not serious enough to report to the police but still unwanted sexual contact. I just find it hard to believe that most women haven't experienced something like this at least once in their lives.

Not literally, as that's not among the topics. I don't know whether it has to be argued at some point, though I'd pay good money to watch Ben try... To me the hard thing will be the comparison with the long-established batshittery that is religion. I think it would be pretty hard to argue that transubstantiation is WORIADS but mutable sex isn't, for example. ETA though maybe we should just go there and declare that none of the major world religions are WORIADS...

I am predicting 'any patient can refuse an examination from anyone at any time for any reason, patient care and consent is always my top priority'

I don't think he will answer the q. I don't think he can. Neither answer is good for him.

How on earth did this man cope in his medical degree if defining the two sexes is, as he put it, a transphobic dogwhistle. It's so bizarre and stupid. As were all his feigned lack of understanding of words.

I actually don't think anyone around him knew quite how utterly batshit his beliefs were before.

Over 2000 comments on the Telegraph article
https://telegraph.co.uk/gift/5bebe07597d10156

I don't think I've seen a single one in favour of Upton

And as someone pointed out on Twitter, if sex is so nebulous and hard to define how does he know he "is biologically female"?