Can we stop a man coming to our women's group?

[AuthenticVoice]

Does anyone know what the UK law states about this?
It's a tiny local women's group, barely even regularly attended.
He's a middle aged bloke saying he identifies as female and wants she / her pronouns. The usual. He's also exceptionally creepy and acts out a lot in other ways.

Is it even legally possible for any women's spaces to refuse or ask such men to go somewhere else these days?

Our area is exceptionally well served with things for either men and / or trans people to join up with. I feel that it's a deliberate targeting. Ideas?

This was my thought - why open a whole can of words on gender identity when you have genuine concerns over their behavior

SociopathicGorilla · Today 16:56
We actually have a trans woman in our group. No issues. She lives as a female in all ways.
A man tried to say he was a woman, but wasn't living as a woman other than wearing women's clothes sometimes.
How does someone live as a woman?
This is the sort of mind boggling nonsense you’ll be subjected to op.
Had legally changed name, presenting only as a woman.
There was no threat to our members.

Only men can be trans woman. And it’s not about threats. It’s about engaging in dysfunctional beliefs like living as a woman. You are lucky you didn’t have serious backlash for denying the second man entry. If you play along with this identity nonsense you can’t pick and choose who is woman enough. The second man was a woman simply because he said so.

You have a mixed group. Just call it that.

Men pretending to be women have demanded access to support groups set up for women who have lost babies through domestic violence.

The entitlement of those men. The shamelessness. It's astounding.

Wouldn't that also look like he had won as he's got the group effectively cancelled

Yes, honestly. The organiser wanted to be 'inclusive' - and i don't doubt taking cross sex hormones may well cause side effects - but it's not menopause with all that entails, and i think it's really off to expect women to entertain a man in a group that's about something women are sometimes uncomfortable discussing, but need support with.

It's sad how many women's groups/ sports/ social events etc. have been blighted by these selfish men. And the backlash for those who disagree can be harsh - see the ongoing employment tribunal of NHS nurse who was suspended for objecting to a trans identifying male in the women's changing rooms. She was punished by management for speaking out.

It's complete batshit, but more dangerously, it's often endorsed by institutions and management.

As for the why they do it - for some of them the whole 'making women uncomfortable' is the best part. And for others, it feeds a sexual fetish - to be accepted into a women only group, or to enter into women only spaces validates their autogynephilia.

I read an article about this topic by a male, who said something interesting - he said men are brought up to believe the world is theirs for the taking. It makes sense when you realise how much this particular group of men are being fawned over and facilitated, in many situation in ways that no actual women ever would be. The misogyny inherent in all this is very clear.

Yes, that's right.

There was a recent thread covering this issue with lots of links to various resources.

Its a shame we dont have some sort of indexing system so the same questions dont have to be asked over and over again.

If your group is an association, ie it isn't legallly registered as a company or something you can say it is women only.

Just as men are setting up Men's Sheds and not being challenged.

And even if you were a legal body self identifiaction is not covered by the law.

And if he happened to have a GRC that says he is a "legal woman" then you just have to show how in terms of your group "it is proportionate" for it to exclude men with a GRC and it only be open to biological women.

I take a particularly dim view of this because i'm old enough to remember how women had to struggle to set up rape crisis/refuge facilities, and get VAWG taken seriously by police/courts/politicians/media (though i think we can argue it's still not, in many respects).

That men feel entitled to demand access to these places, despite the very real negative impact on women - the people they were intended for - will never not make me rage.

The women's refuge in my town is the only one in the county. There are never enough spaces, countrywide, for the women that need them. Services are still run on a shoestring. If there is a need for trans specific services why can't they do what women had to do, and still have to do - roll up their sleeves, get grafting, and set up their own? Nah, much easier to muscle women out of the way and take from us. The entitlement is breathtaking.

If there are only a few of you there, why don't you all just leave if they turn up?

You could all just go to a local pub or coffee shop.

Silent protest is less likely to receive backlash but it still sends a strong message. If challenged, just say there are too few people in attendance to run the group so you're not staying.

No there isn't. Both are men.

We actually have a trans woman in our group. No issues. She lives as a female in all ways.
A man tried to say he was a woman, but wasn't living as a woman other than wearing women's clothes sometimes.
We declined his entry and blocked him. There's a difference

Can you explain more about the second man wearing women’s clothes sometimes? Jeans, joggers, t shirts are all gender neutral. Did he have to permanently wear a female costume to be accepted into your group?

I would have left your group rather than be forced to pretend that man is a woman. I wonder how many women have chose to not join because of him. I think like many people you’ve tried to be kind, and ended up not being very kind to women. Which is ironic, because you acknowledged a need for a woman only walking group. Then allowed a man to join.

Just host the meeting in someone's house and don't tell them. The authorities can't force anyone to not exclude someone from their house that they don't want there.

We'll have to go underground to avoid these creeps... SMH.

He can win the battle, OP wins the war as the group continues to operate without him without any fall out? He may say he was excluded due to being trans and not go away quietly. Does the group care enough about the group to battle any stress that may result of this? Sometimes you should pick your fights.

I think with everything that we have witnessed in the last few years this is very well said .WELL PUT!

run the group YOU WANT.
male female or mixed

And if you really want your women’s silent yoga in the same room as a male prog rock practise session that’s odd .. but ok because you want it like that. Likewise if you want a mixed sex group

but don’t … please don’t… say that women are women AND what you think are pretty looking men. It’s not true now or ever. That’s not a women’s group it’s mixed sex.

you think it’s kind : it’s not
not to your women ( nice knarly or not)
not to that man / men
not to all women who don’t or won’t join later .

Your kindness is killing us…. It’s ruining women’s swim - gym - hymn - pimms&gin - groups.
they aren’t women only if you let in a him.

Is it advertised as open to anyone? Surely any group of 'friends' can meet up without having to let any other person join them unless invited. If the rules don't let you do that close the current group and just meet up as friends in future. If he turns up, 'Sorry this is a private party, that group no longer exists, everyone lost interest in it'.

What does your group cover? Is it a specific gender related issue, or more of a WI type thing?

I think a bit of sunlight might help. For the next few weeks you could plan some awareness sessions for male family members for example.

I think this creep is getting off on making you uncomfortable being the only male there. If there are plenty of other men, by invitation, then he might scuttle off.

I also agree with the pp who suggested that unless there are sufficient numbers then the meeting is cancelled for that week, then make sure there aren't enough for the meeting to run for a couple of weeks. Although he might get some of his creepy mates to come along.

Basically anything to make him lose interest and move along.

The single sex exceptions in the Equality Act 2010 don't apply to clubs and associations of 25 people or more (see EHRC link above for definition of a club or association). So if your group is bigger than 25 people and this bloke has a GRC saying he is female, you can't lawfully exclude him. There was a lot of discussion about this in the FWS Supreme Court case.

So if your group is bigger than 25 people and this bloke has a GRC saying he is female, you can't lawfully exclude him

Yes you can, if it is "proportionate" as the law explains eg discussing issues such as male violence, where a man (with a GRC which makes him a "legal woman") being there would be inappropriate.

This comes up on every thread, and still it seems nobody remembers.

The SSE are specifically about excluding men with a GRC.

If you are a smaller group or association, you can exclude men as you aren't covered by the law, eg this was the position of the women's student unions group in Bristol where the SU had to accept that had that right.

So, as others have said it all come down to how the group is advertised.

Although if it is just a group of friends nobody but the friends need to know about it (although over the years the friends might bring other friends to take part).

I forget how transphobic mumsnet is. The real world is not like this at all and most people are very inclusive.

Why would they include a man who says he’s a woman (but doesn’t attempt to look like one), into a woman’s group. What makes him a woman? How do they know he’s not a creep? (His behaviour has been described as creepy). Is it transphobic to say yes to every man who asks?

I forget how transphobic mumsnet is. The real world is not like this at all and most people are very inclusive

That old chestnut.Transphobia. A phobia of trans people.

Its a bit rich coming from you though, when you discriminated against the second man because he wasn’t the right type of trans for you.

Do you know what autogynephilia is ?

Mixed group all the way. And give him jobs to do like making tea.

most women have been bullied into silence by women who put the feelings of men above those of women

I imagine any woman in your group who’d expressed any disagreement with your stance on letting men in would have found themselves unwelcome