Page 38 | NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #6

nauticant · 2025-02-07T12:34:55+00:00

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity. The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 January 2025 and is expected to continue for 2 weeks. The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton started giving evidence on 6 February. *Access to view the hearing remotely can be obtained by sending an email request to [[https://mailto:edinburghet@justice.gov.uk edinburghet@justice.gov.uk]] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.* The hearing is being live tweeted by [[https://x.com/tribunaltweets https://x.com/tribunaltweets]] and there's additional information here: [[https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr]]. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: [[https://archive.is/xkSxy. archive.is/xkSxy.]] An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: [[https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets]] Thread 1: [[https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse]] Thread 2: [[https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2 https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2]] Thread 3: [[https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3 https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3]] Thread 4: [[https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4 https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4]] Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5

larklane17 · 08/02/2025 14:16

BeBraveLittlePenguin · 08/02/2025 13:43

To be fair to her, she's just applied for and got silk. You're basically advised by those who know such things to re jig your profile to show you are working at silk level because your assessors will look. The wording of her profile is pretty much textbook since this is her year of the application.

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I would expect her not to mislead, as opposed to polishing up her c.v a bit.
Because at some point, as we see, it can come back to bite you.

As those who know such things should jolly well be clear about.

I'm further not impressed at her behaviour in the Tribunal, with her inability to call her own client by their preferred pronouns, her Forshatters, my Opponent, and her foolish attempts to bullshit the Judge.

So no Operation Be Kind from me.

RethinkingLife · 08/02/2025 14:19

It was fairly interesting to see RMW RT this, albeit I would suspect that we have different interpretations: The greatest threat we fear is our own silence.

https://x.com/EastEndJoe/status/1884601718161231887

It also mentions critical thinking and the courage to go against what everyone else is doing…Well, SP did, and as she stated when JR asked her why none of her colleagues spoke up, 'Well, look where I am' (I paraphrase).

x.com

https://x.com/EastEndJoe/status/1884601718161231887

KnottyAuty · 08/02/2025 14:24

guinnessguzzler · 08/02/2025 11:24

Is that not a bit like proudly saying you were responsible for them bringing in a new approach to health and safety at the nuclear power plant after you managed to cause it to meltdown ?

Perhaps soon Dr U and JR will be able to claim joint responsibility for clarifying the law around access to single sex changing rooms in the workplace? That will look great on both of their CVs.

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@guinnessguzzler
lololololol

Feckedupbundle · 08/02/2025 14:24

Ah pants. I'm at the Farmer's protest at Westminster on Monday,so won't be able to catch up on proceedings.

myplace · 08/02/2025 14:38

RethinkingLife · 08/02/2025 13:45

Yes. Although it's interesting to see how events have landed (prior to Friday, admittedly) with people deeply sympathetic to DU / BU and haven't quite understood that JR's sympathetic talking through is not the end of DU / BU's contribution but that there is a cross-examination to come.

https://x.com/FeministRoar/status/1887963564100727165

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Interesting too that at this stage of the process, when we have heard all the DU/Fife side of things unchallenged, their position looks woeful.

Unless I have misunderstood, the next bit is where Sandie’s position is explored and DU/Fife’s position challenged.

I mean, they are heading for a rough next stage, it seems to me, if they’ve already done their best part.

MarieDeGournay · 08/02/2025 14:38

larklane17 · 08/02/2025 14:16

I would expect her not to mislead, as opposed to polishing up her c.v a bit.
Because at some point, as we see, it can come back to bite you.

As those who know such things should jolly well be clear about.

I'm further not impressed at her behaviour in the Tribunal, with her inability to call her own client by their preferred pronouns, her Forshatters, my Opponent, and her foolish attempts to bullshit the Judge.

So no Operation Be Kind from me.

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Oh yeah, I forgot about the 'Forshatter...' - I left it out of my ' Operation let's not be too beastly to JR' post - fair cop, larklane17, that was bad.

RethinkingLife · 08/02/2025 14:39

The tribute to SP's father is now > £9,500.

All those £5, £10, £20 donations and more.

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #6

FarriersGirl · 08/02/2025 14:41

@NotMaroonButRaspberry "I have worked with several very very devout religious staff over the years in the NHS. With most I haven't explicitly canvassed or discussed their views but based on their place of worship and their involvement in their community you could assume they possibly held views that others would consider judgemental of alternative lifestyle choices."

Good point about leaving personal views at the door. One of the things that my former rather woke workplace was keen on was "bringing your whole self to work" This always struck me as a terrible idea 😲

NotMaroonButRaspberry · 08/02/2025 15:03

myplace · 08/02/2025 14:38

Interesting too that at this stage of the process, when we have heard all the DU/Fife side of things unchallenged, their position looks woeful.

Unless I have misunderstood, the next bit is where Sandie’s position is explored and DU/Fife’s position challenged.

I mean, they are heading for a rough next stage, it seems to me, if they’ve already done their best part.

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I thought that about DU testimony. They were under the impression that saying things like, "I made a note of her behaviour as I thought it was unusual" (re the very first time Sandie left a room because DU had walked in on her in a state of undress) and, "So I explained to her that as I am a woman...." would come across as really reasonable and right on things to have done.

The lack of insight or imagination as to how these things may land for others is quite something.

Mollyollydolly · 08/02/2025 15:07

I posted something on X about how it was amazing JR couldn't say Maya's name after all their past history, almost like she was trying to rile her, and Maya liked it. She's far too professional to say anything but obviously hadn't passed her by!

inkymoose · 08/02/2025 15:09

Swashbuckled · 07/02/2025 22:37

We were discussing further back the absence of photos of Upton, compared to Peggie, in the media. Not sure 🤔 if this one’s already been posted.

“You probably won’t have seen a picture of the doctor at the centre of the dispute in any of the coverage, and ultimately, the fact that he is a man ought to be enough to bar him from a female-only space. But for clarity, Dr Upton is a bloke who looks like a bloke. That he enjoys dressing as a woman and wants to compel the outside world to refer to him as such is undisputed. The bone of contention is whether it is legal to compel others to play along with his fantasy, and to what extent institutions ought to facilitate it.”

https://thecritic.co.uk/describing-reality-is-not-harassment/?fbclid=IwZXh0bgNhZW0CMTEAAR3usLgRH1D1CwyLAhsA1tnWvewKqgnND86XW N1uQowkrmL2NVDARnNTjUUaem_UmOLecvklJjQ2H60FFTUQ

Um, that's where the expression "boner of contention" popped up.

StellaAndCrow · 08/02/2025 15:12

Sortumn · 08/02/2025 09:29

How could JR fail to notice the missing documents?

I can understand she may have been misled but surely in ensuring that she understands the chain of events she must have noticed that there were gaps and that the decision making process was poorly represented in the documents that were available.

Edited

To be fair though, she did have to spend A LOT of time reading Sandie's husbands Facebook posts! I imagine this left little time to consider all the legal documents. :)

Knowing what we know now about the shitshow of R1's processes and documentation, it seems even more ridiculous (if possible) that JR spent so much time cross examining Mr Peggie on each of his Facebook posts.

KnottyAuty · 08/02/2025 15:14

Justabaker · 08/02/2025 13:13

Happy Saturday, Mumsnetters. I'm a member of Tribunal Tweets and it's been a rollercoaster of a week. I've dropped in from time to time to catch the vibe but the threads are growing so fast it's like drinking from a firehose.

There have been a number of requests and questions about how to support our work. We really appreciate that. You can become a paid subscriber on the Substack. The only perk you get - you can comment on articles and I respond to your queries. Substack prides itself on free speech and is largely backed by Marc Andressen.

We have been reluctant to use any of the 'buy me a coffee' type services. The concern is finding one that is insulated from mass reporting. A denial of service from mass reporting can lead to de-banking which is a worry for us.

The Substack raises enough money to pay our IT expenses and normal legal fees. We have contemplated a judicial review and appeals on specific cases in the past but did not proceed. If we did need to do something major, we would probably crowd fund for that purpose. We don't want to lose our amateur status if we can avoid it. And we keep hoping we will run out of cases to cover.

Happy to consider and investigate suggestions on one off donations.

Thank you so much for your interest, support, keeping the issues hot etc.

On behalf of all of Tribunal Tweets.

@Justabaker thanks to you and the team - amazing work for transparency and justice xxx

Paddingtonsmarmaladesandwiches · 08/02/2025 15:17

Justabaker · 08/02/2025 13:13

Happy Saturday, Mumsnetters. I'm a member of Tribunal Tweets and it's been a rollercoaster of a week. I've dropped in from time to time to catch the vibe but the threads are growing so fast it's like drinking from a firehose.

There have been a number of requests and questions about how to support our work. We really appreciate that. You can become a paid subscriber on the Substack. The only perk you get - you can comment on articles and I respond to your queries. Substack prides itself on free speech and is largely backed by Marc Andressen.

We have been reluctant to use any of the 'buy me a coffee' type services. The concern is finding one that is insulated from mass reporting. A denial of service from mass reporting can lead to de-banking which is a worry for us.

The Substack raises enough money to pay our IT expenses and normal legal fees. We have contemplated a judicial review and appeals on specific cases in the past but did not proceed. If we did need to do something major, we would probably crowd fund for that purpose. We don't want to lose our amateur status if we can avoid it. And we keep hoping we will run out of cases to cover.

Happy to consider and investigate suggestions on one off donations.

Thank you so much for your interest, support, keeping the issues hot etc.

On behalf of all of Tribunal Tweets.

Can’t tell you how much I appreciate you and your colleagues work. You’ve done so much to shed light on all these tribunals and advance peoples’ understanding in an unvarnished accurate way. Thank you so much. You’re all superstars!

Ereshkigalangcleg · 08/02/2025 15:18

Justabaker · 08/02/2025 13:13

Happy Saturday, Mumsnetters. I'm a member of Tribunal Tweets and it's been a rollercoaster of a week. I've dropped in from time to time to catch the vibe but the threads are growing so fast it's like drinking from a firehose.

There have been a number of requests and questions about how to support our work. We really appreciate that. You can become a paid subscriber on the Substack. The only perk you get - you can comment on articles and I respond to your queries. Substack prides itself on free speech and is largely backed by Marc Andressen.

We have been reluctant to use any of the 'buy me a coffee' type services. The concern is finding one that is insulated from mass reporting. A denial of service from mass reporting can lead to de-banking which is a worry for us.

The Substack raises enough money to pay our IT expenses and normal legal fees. We have contemplated a judicial review and appeals on specific cases in the past but did not proceed. If we did need to do something major, we would probably crowd fund for that purpose. We don't want to lose our amateur status if we can avoid it. And we keep hoping we will run out of cases to cover.

Happy to consider and investigate suggestions on one off donations.

Thank you so much for your interest, support, keeping the issues hot etc.

On behalf of all of Tribunal Tweets.

Thank you for this post, it's really helpful. I can totally understand why you are using the Substack operation to raise funds.

NotMaroonButRaspberry · 08/02/2025 15:22

StellaAndCrow · 08/02/2025 15:12

To be fair though, she did have to spend A LOT of time reading Sandie's husbands Facebook posts! I imagine this left little time to consider all the legal documents. :)

Knowing what we know now about the shitshow of R1's processes and documentation, it seems even more ridiculous (if possible) that JR spent so much time cross examining Mr Peggie on each of his Facebook posts.

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Agreed.

It now seems (even more) mad how much time JR took on absolute trivialities of limited if any relevance.

And the intensity with which she tried to hammer home that calling a man a man was the most genius offence ever....

BeaTwix · 08/02/2025 15:25

Very grateful to all at Tribunal Tweets @Justabaker if you need crowdfunding/ volunteers let us know.

KnottyAuty · 08/02/2025 15:26

Feckedupbundle · 08/02/2025 14:24

Ah pants. I'm at the Farmer's protest at Westminster on Monday,so won't be able to catch up on proceedings.

OMG that was so noisy last time. Only just got rid of the Baby Shark horn ear worm! But well done for protesting - with you all the way that these IHT rules are bad

lcakethereforeIam · 08/02/2025 15:29

I did even work with a male doctor whose religious observance was such that he wouldn't take breaks in the staff room if any women were present.

I wonder if he'd be complained about if he used the staff room when Dr Upton was present?

KnottyAuty · 08/02/2025 15:30

FarriersGirl · 08/02/2025 14:41

@NotMaroonButRaspberry "I have worked with several very very devout religious staff over the years in the NHS. With most I haven't explicitly canvassed or discussed their views but based on their place of worship and their involvement in their community you could assume they possibly held views that others would consider judgemental of alternative lifestyle choices."

Good point about leaving personal views at the door. One of the things that my former rather woke workplace was keen on was "bringing your whole self to work" This always struck me as a terrible idea 😲

It only a certain type of whole self is deemed acceptable. In my experience the part of me that wanted clients to have their work done well and on time & budget was apparently not welcome in some parts of the office. The clients loved it tho - so I left and the clients came with me where we are all much happier with our whole work selves 🤣.

BonerOfContention · 08/02/2025 15:31

inkymoose · 08/02/2025 15:09

Um, that's where the expression "boner of contention" popped up.

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You called?

TWETMIRF · 08/02/2025 15:33

Unexpected boner in the changing room thread area

LondonLawyer · 08/02/2025 15:35

FarriersGirl · 08/02/2025 14:41

@NotMaroonButRaspberry "I have worked with several very very devout religious staff over the years in the NHS. With most I haven't explicitly canvassed or discussed their views but based on their place of worship and their involvement in their community you could assume they possibly held views that others would consider judgemental of alternative lifestyle choices."

Good point about leaving personal views at the door. One of the things that my former rather woke workplace was keen on was "bringing your whole self to work" This always struck me as a terrible idea 😲

I am prepared to state, firmly, that "bring your whole self to work" is an absolutely terrible idea.
My clients don't want my "didn't sleep well, DS2 knocked my tea over, I got wet at the bus stop and I'm monumentally pissed off" self. They want my "paying attention, being entirely professional" self.

NotMaroonButRaspberry · 08/02/2025 15:36

lcakethereforeIam · 08/02/2025 15:29

I did even work with a male doctor whose religious observance was such that he wouldn't take breaks in the staff room if any women were present.

I wonder if he'd be complained about if he used the staff room when Dr Upton was present?

I feel pretty sure he would have just upped and out as he did with the rest of us. Difference being we shrugged and carried on. Both parties accepted it was his issue so he was the one to leave the rest of us to our breaks in peace.

Tallisker · 08/02/2025 15:39

@Justabaker thank you so much for all you and your colleagues do, it really is amazing.

How do you type so fast? What sort of speeds do you do, and how do you know what to condense? I have done a lot of audio typing in my time and got good speeds going, but it was usually one person dictating, so someone I knew, a subject matter I knew about etc.

If I could get my speeds back up, could I volunteer?