NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #6

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 January 2025 and is expected to continue for 2 weeks. The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton started giving evidence on 6 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely can be obtained by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse

Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2

Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3

Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4

Thread 5: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5

My impression is that this is referring to a letter from SP's solicitor to NHS Fife, which was followed by (and may or may not have caused) the scrapping of the first investigation process and the instigation of the second. So there is a suggestion that there must have been some discussion of those points among the board, which might be helpful to SP's case. I've looked at TT and couldn't see anything that said anyone among the Respondent had actually said all that themselves - but it's a bit murky so happy to be corrected!

I think your post deserves recognition as one of the funniest, but also most astute, pieces of commentary we've had on this damn idiocy.

That's what I as wondering too. Are people subpoenaed in tribunals?

I don't believe for a milliseconds that no records were kept of all these conversations and meetings. I used to be a medical workforce manager and made notes of every single conversation - who was there, what was said, any actions that needed to be undertaken. And every email trail was filed carefully just in case it was ever needed.

We dealt with contentious issues such as doctors' pay banding/rotas/working conditions etc and even the most junior staff in our dept knew how important record keeping was. It beggars belief that other trusts would fall so far short of the basics. Interestingly, if we every had internal hearings, the BMA were always very hot on us disclosing to them, but their bundles were always shambolic and missing vital documents.

Good afternoon all. Patiently waiting for the afternoon session to start

Are you 'in' the room? Im in but the tribunal rom is empty of people.

They need to get on with it I have the school run in 45 mins 😭

On the other hand, it was a busy A&E department so we didn't have time to document all the procedures and decisions leading to potentially career-ending consequences.

The implication that the NHS HR department was too busy saving lives to write stuff down gave a picture of harassed and heroic medics in the actual midst of a chaotic A&E trying to simultaneously conduct an investigation while slicing and stitching patients.

I'd imagined they'd be in offices, in a well qualified HR department, and generating busloads of NHS paperwork, legendary for its overabundance & thoroughness.

Just reading over this bits I missed this morning.

So NHS Fife had advice that SP shouldn't have been suspended and should return to work asap and that they should reinstate the single sex changing room?

They then ignored that and started a new investigation with brand new accusations?

Surely this is enough for them to settle. I can't believe they let it get to court.

Edit to add I now see this was from SP's own solicitor.

No, SP's solicitor told them that, they ignored it and appeared to have started a second investigation into the complaints instead

I think they get carried away with self-righteousness and all normal procedures get binned. It seems like a sort of parallel universe which only works if no-one asks proper questions, it's a sort of fantasy-land. I think if you started documenting it in a sober way, you'd start to see it unravelling. If at the core of the whole thing is the belief that someone can change sex, that's never going to stand up to formal procedures because it's bloody nonsense.

How can anyone know if a trawl of emails and other comms is true and accurate in any legal disclosure, not just this one? Are those supplying the information just trusted to supply everything good or bad?

TT's thread from this morning, if it hasn't already gone up:

threadreaderapp.com/thread/1887793951769338255.html

I haven't kept up with this thread so apologies, but has anyone else noticed how many undated (and important) documents were undated? Iirc, we had DU's 'hate incident' and 'formal complaint' undated, for starters. I'm sure there was one other at least.

Methinks Fife Health Board do not run a tight ship.

Just reading TT substack from this morning. Does anyone know who or what MSF is abbreviation for? 'MSF and ED as IXs were substituted to team led by LC'

I think they get carried away with self-righteousness and all normal procedures get binned. It seems like a sort of parallel universe which only works if no-one asks proper questions, it's a sort of fantasy-land.

In every single one of these ETs we've had so far (Maya, Allison Bailey, Jo Phoenix etc etc etc and etc) there's been a consistent pattern of HR failing at the absolute basics of their job. They seem to have all decided that they don't need to follow the law, or even know the law, and they can just do whatever they please, as long as it's in line with what Stonewall tells them. And then when it comes to tribunal, they all fall apart because they are unable to defend their actions. How is it possible to be that inept?

is the link to the courtroom working-I just get a black screen?

It is but no one back in there yet.

I can see the room but it's empty

HR 101. Absolutely basic. Shocking that the NHS does not have HR who understand the legal requirements of investigating a complaint.

Not Medecins Sans Frontieres, clearly, which is what it means to me.

Michelle someone who was off sick for a while.

Because HR generally are. I'm a solicitor and, in my experience, not a single one of them knows anything about employment law. It's baffling.

Thanks Faye, found you on Crowd Justice.

Incidentally they don't half have a lot of plastic bottles around. At my workplace, while you still might see some in circs like on the witness table, the people for whom this is a normal place of work would be expected to bring washable cups/bottles and be filling them at the tap, and not be provided with bottled water.

Thanks, I'd forgotten about the person who went off sick.