NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #5

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 January 2025 and is expected to continue for 2 weeks. The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton started giving evidence on 6 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely can be obtained by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse

Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2

Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3

Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4

Morning all
Just thinking again, with DU being a doctor do you think NC will question them about biology etc. ? For example a female patient needing different assessment.

If you read any of the trans widows threads, his behaviour is entirely consistent with that of many of the husbands of the trans widows

Weird though it sounds, so very many of the women say that the personalities of their husbands underwent a significant change, in that they became entirely self-centred, self focused, and didn't give a flying fuck about anyone else, including their children. Burning through the family finances, lying, and being totally inward looking, etc.

We don't have any of the papers for this case yet, do we, except MF's statement for Sex Matters? I hope we'll eventually get to see the legal arguments. Seems to me that one of the tricky things is that it's not so much that DU was, through his behaviour, harrassing SP in the changing room (though anything about his behaviour that was less than ideal helps her case). Rather, it's that his very presence, as a man in the female changing room, harrassed her. From our point of view, in the long run, it would be better if the latter was what was found - we don't want a situation where lovely harmless transwomen are allowed in female spaces. OTOH one can have some sympathy with DU who must be pretty confused when almost all his open interactions with people at work validate him, except for this one pesky nurse (and all the others he can avoid noticing).

Then along the way there was the harrassment accusation against SP, and it seems that much of what we've seen so far is re-investigating that - presumably formally to support the idea that the way that accusation and investigation were handled were unfair to SP (harrassed her? I'm not sure what legal term applies where), but perhaps also to cut off a "she's a trouble maker, she deserved it" feeling from the tribunal that would damage her case?

I suppose after we're finished with DU there will be time spent with people from Fife Health Board and we'll hear all about what their policies are and why they think they are lawful?

If any of the legal people understand more about what's going on I'd be interested (or if someone can point me to a post here where one of them has already explained it) - I've only been able to drop in to odd bits of what's actually been said, so that plus the lack of documents is leaving me pretty confused.

Weird though it sounds, so very many of the women say that the personalities of their husbands underwent a significant change, in that they became entirely self-centred, self focused, and didn't give a flying fuck about anyone else, including their children. Burning through the family finances, lying, and being totally inward looking

I think they fall into patterns of thinking and behaviour that align with addiction. They ruminate for hours about fantasies of being female, looking female, others thinking they are female and this dwarfs and overwhelms other areas of life. The aspects if their life that present most challenge to fuelling their addiction get demolished.

I suppose after we're finished with DU there will be time spent with people from Fife Health Board and we'll hear all about what their policies are and why they think they are lawful?

That's what I'm looking forward to, even more than the cross-examination of Dr Upton. From previous experience (eg Allison Bailey, Jo Phoenix, Rachel Meade etc) when the HR types and senior management are called on to explain their actions, they flounder hopelessly. I want to know how they're going to justify their implementation of a policy that, as Michael Foran has explained, is in contravention of the law.

Just caught up. Looking forward to catching up again this evening as I’m out today. I donated to Sandi’s dad’s charity last night and was delighted to see it has doubled since then. I’ve also seen the tweets off her daughter thanking everyone and the lovely messages on there. A couple of people I follow (journalists) have shared the link too.

I therefore hope Sandi knows we all stand with her. Brave, brave woman of steel who refused to wheesht.

I think them having "Beth" as a second respondent is a stroke of genius. Has they just named NHS Fife "Beth" could have sat back comfy at home watching from a distance.

Shot across the bows for any other people like him who think they can cause chaos and slip under the radar.

I have absolutely no sympathy at all for Upton.

Making notes on, deciding to escalate, and reporting a woman who objects to his presence in her own changing room is harassment.

The very concept that he's in there at all is sexist clap trap and the idea that she's in the wrong for objecting is fucking abusive.

And I can easily acknowledge that he's having a hard time, without sympathising. He's entirely the architect of his own misfortune.

And one of the stand-out characteristics of transgenderism is the self victimisation that run through it like a stick of rock. Coming in with half a dozen allies surrounding you like a shield? Please.

however, I'm also perfectly happy to acknowledge that FIFE NHS are fucking idiots. And if I was upton I would be blaming them also for entirely failing to predict how this might turn out.

He's one person, self centred and invested. There must be dozens involved in FIFE NHS, including lawyers. What's their bloody excuse??

Addiction. That's interesting.

While I was writing my post, I was trying to work out the reason for the phenomenon.

It can't be narcissism, because surely, they would've displayed signs of that long before. But addiction might definitely fit the bill

I'm uncomfortable with this as it reminds me of the reactions TRAs have to people like Kathleen Stock losing their jobs. They want negative experiences to serve as warnings to others.

We need organisations to have sound policies that protect all workers from unreasonable behaviour.

Upton has caused significant damage to the career of a senior nurse because she stood up for herself in the face of a man trampling over her dignity and personal boundaries.

That's the elephant in the room, isn't it?

If sex and gender are entirely different things and woman is gender not sex, and therefore being a woman has nothing to do with biology or your physical body, why do you need to change the sex marker on your legal documents? Why do you need to use female spaces? All this fudging of language, claiming it's all so complicated that there's no clear solution, claiming biology is so complicated that it beggars belief that we manage to reproduce at all. A bl**dy tribunal over a very simple situation of a man in female changing room should never have reached this point, and yet it has because he claims that being correctly sexed and made to use the appropriate facilities for his sex is so upsetting for him that it can't be allowed. This is not just about being able to lie about what sex you are, it's also about the weaponisation of mental health and the fact that workplaces are now utterly terrified of being accused of doing anything which might be construed as harming mental health. And this is a harm which, the vast majority of the time, is unprovable, because we can't prove feelings. He says he was shaken and scared, he is taken at his word, despite the obvious incongruence of a large bloke who, given his age, will be well into the peak of his strength, and a very slim, considerably shorter and older woman.

Upton was never at risk of serious harm in that changing room when SP confronted him. Not for a single second.

I can't say the same about her, though.

(Yes I'm aware of the Ashley case, though obviously the justification there doesn't apply any more)

Agree and I would absolutely (if I had capacity) decline to be treated by him. Not because he’s trans but because he is plainly incapable of focusing on or prioritising anyone but himself, I also couldn’t trust him to maintain confidentiality

Morning.
If DU shows up today I'll eat my hat. Or he will have a sudden attack of amnesia. Either Or.

It's very clear he's just another creepy man.

FanofBen not what you want, but Sex Matters have popped the case management decision (the anonymity/pronoun request) on their website:

sex-matters.org/wp-content/uploads/2025/01/Redacted-Peggie-Case-Management-Order-06.01.2025-1.pdf

It's quite a good primer as to what NC will be arguing.

It can totally be narcissism!

Even his description of what nurses vs doctors did and working as a team came across as 'the nurses work to facilitate me, the most important team member '

If you want to see a consultant with off the scale narcissism in real life, the 24 Hours in Police Custody episode The Detective and the Surgeon is a must watch.

There's a raging class issue in that as well as his brain melts that he has been caught by 2 working class constables. And even worse one of them is a woman.

Apologies fanOfBen I just mis-named you.

£5400 now.

https://alexander-herschell-bell.muchloved.com/?_gl=11pinurn_gaMTM4OTUyNTI0NC4xNzM4ODQxNzgx_ga_R0559FN1H6*MTczODg3ODExNi42LjEuMTczODg3ODU0Mi41Ni4wLjA.

I'm not crying, you're crying.

• Addiction. That's interesting.

While I was writing my post, I was trying to work out the reason for the phenomenon.

It can't be narcissism, because surely, they would've displayed signs of that long before. But addiction might definitely fit the bill*

I see a lot of parallels between my patients with eating disorders and those experiencing gender distress. Their distress is fuelled and sustained through addictive behaviours. For those with eating disorders, most of their waking moments are dominated by thoughts of food and what they will / won't eat. For those with gender distress, their thoughts (and corresponding behaviours) are dominated by it's how they will be perceived.

If you read any of the trans widows threads, his behaviour is entirely consistent with that of many of the husbands of the trans widows
Weird though it sounds, so very many of the women say that the personalities of their husbands underwent a significant change, in that they became entirely self-centred, self focused, and didn't give a flying fuck about anyone else, including their children. Burning through the family finances, lying, and being totally inward looking, etc.

This is so interesting and I guess it’s because of the way announcing you’re trans now means you must be given whatever you want, praised to the skies for being stunning and brave, and be part of a media narrative that you’re the victim.

So many men I’ve known (and we see so many described on here as well) are resentful and angry about the way family life requires them to buckle down and not be the centre of attention, not get sex on tap, share decisions and budgets and chores with a woman, not get to spend all their money on luxury items for themselves etc. some are abusive in various ways - financial abuse, sexual pestering or groping or helping themselves when she’s asleep - or just live a single life, do what they like, get pissed and shit the bed/wee in the wardrobe, opt out of housework or childcare. But they can then find the,selves getting dumped.

Trans ideology says they are essentially mummy’s brave little soldier who can do no wrong and deserves to be pandered to at every turn. Any woman who isn’t on board with that, including their wife, can now be righteously punished. A powerful patriarchal message dressed up as “lgbtq++ rights” tells women that they must be kind and understanding to these poor men who are now more oppressed than they are.

these men were like this already IMO. Transing doesn’t change them, it just gives them permission.

Thanks for the link

I’m sure that Dr U has had a lot to deal with. And it must be grim and also for SP. But anyone who makes an accusation against someone else inevitably has the spotlight turned on to them. (As women who try to seek justice for rape have found time and time again.) And in such a controversial and highly debated subject such as self-ID, that light must be horrible to deal with. I wouldn’t wish it on my worst enemy - a tribunal’s bad enough on its own!

sorry to come over all worthy but this article demonstrates why it is essential that we all behave nicely. There were too many posts deleted yesterday so let’s try to avoid that today and keep the debate civilised. #notallwomen
😁

@LondonLawyer seems that there’s a socking great clash between this and the long enshrined 1992 H&S regs requiring male and female facilities. I wonder if this has been tested specifically in a court. Even worse as it seems that you can just say a few words declaring intention to transition and completely trash important health, safety and welfare at work that has been in place for decades.

I was going to add a picture of my new foster puppy I've named Sandie ( she's tan in colour) but the picture option is gone.

@Cismyfatarse interesting to see in the times article the claim that Upton said he never looked at the women in the changing room, which is not actually what he said at all.

What he actually said was that he was very careful to make sure the women didn't get the impression that he was looking.

He never said he didn't look.

I was in a cafe yesterday and overheard a bunch of older women (70s?) discussing this case in the table next to ours! Their fury and distress was clear- they said how when they started work they battled just to get equal pay and bank accounts and now women are forced to get undressed in front of male colleagues just to keep their jobs!
(I wanted to tell them there is a government plan to introduce hate crime law to have them arrested for having such seditious conversations in coffee shops, but said nothing...)
As @RoyalCorgi says above the disconnect between ordinary people and those in power is massive...