NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #5

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 January 2025 and is expected to continue for 2 weeks. The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton started giving evidence on 6 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely can be obtained by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse

Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2

Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3

Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4

I still can't get over the twisted logic here.
He knows he's a man, we all know he's a man, someone tells him they're uncomfortable with him in women's spaces and they are in trouble.
The person telling him doesn't actually matter, it could have been a male colleague pointing out that the men's is next door. It was his behaviour that is wrong as the facilities weren't unisex.

I agree, but I wish there was a fundraiser that went directly to Sandie, or her legal fund

I never really saw the argument for Scottish independence, but if this is the way their public services act, then go for it, and the sane staff can cross Hadrian's wall. Or the Antonine wall if they'd agree to it being a bit further up.

(Joke before I get a load of flak)

And yes, I've donated to the fund in memory of her Father, as well.

From @spannasaurus Yesterday 17:46
I had a look at the most recent accounts for the Scottish Rheumatology society earlier and the income was £38k for 2023. The donations made in memory of Alex Bell are over £2K so over 5% of the 2023 annual income.

£4.5k now.

Re anaesthesia, it's documented that he had a secondment to anaesthetics, it's also documented that he takes antidepressants and other meds such as propanol for anxiety.

It was also stated that he had phased returns to work during which he could leave at any time if he became upset or anxious, and that he had a panic attack at work at the thought of coming across SP (she was suspended so it was not remotely likely).

Being entirely responsible for keeping your patient both sedated enough to be unaware of their surgery but not so sedated that they stop breathing and die would be anxiety provoking for the majority of people.....it would also be highly inconvenient & inappropriate to need to leave during surgery in an unplanned way or for staff having to deal with your panic attack when they are also operating & keeping the patient properly anaesthetised and monitored.

I really, truly, sincerely hope that NHS Fife have better advisors re Occ Health than they do HR.

@NotMaroonButRaspberry He won't have been doing much (if any) anaesthesia unsupervised at his stage of training.

But I have worked in several hospitals that use those "raspberry" scrubs and that is what they get called - after all no self respecting male doctor would werar pink scrubs!! Colour is particularly contentious in Scotland (but the raspberry thing happens in England too) due to football colours as Maroon = hearts. Add in the traditional sectarianism of Scottish football and red/ green /blue scrubs become problematic.

I will never get over going to visit a west of scotland hospital and discovering that they had both green and blue scrubs so the different sides of the religious divide could show their affiliation. If i'd been in charge they would all have been in peach.

Scrub colour can also be used to denote staff role so the fact that they were raspberry may be significant in that respect. NHS Scotland has standardised uniform for non-medical staff which is worn widely including in EDs so it's highly likely that the nurses were in trouser/ tunic combinations in various shades of blue depending on their seniority.

I had a phased return to work once.

It was shit as everyone expected me to do fulltime work in part time hours.

Also the patients kept getting sick 10 minutes before I was due to go home in the afternoon and so I'd end up doing a full day anyway.

What kind of bonkers Occ Health puts in that you can leave immediately whenever you are tearful? And what kind of managers agreed it?

All this confirms is that Dr Upton was barely doing any work and everyone knew not to rely on him actually turning up.

Thanks @BeaTwix I'm in my 28th year of NHS service so do know some of this - though I've never worked in Scotland or anywhere scrub colour is sensitive due to sectarianism! I've never heard the maroon scrubs (worn by AHP here) referred to as raspberry but maybe it's a shade I've not come across? Or are they talking about the light pink (cardiology here) or hot pink (admin) or salmon (clinical measurements)?

I have more than one role, at different bands, so have different shades of blue scrubs to wear on the right days! Some days I do a bit of both and get changed accordingly 🤣

Whilst DU won't have been solely responsible for anaesthesia, he may well have been observing or assisting during procedures (or maybe in obstetrics or ITU) but the concerns remain as to how well he could be supported and accommodated and why any patients should be subject to that.

That sounds rubbish @AnnaMagnani

I'm a bit jealous even so. I returned after near death from ectopic pregnancy to full shifts and a warning over being off sick/for taking them over their trigger thresholds. When I made apologetic noises some insensitive voice piped up that "it would have been longer if she was actually pregnant I suppose."

Looking back, I should have noted it in my phone & datixed such a remark.

All this confirms is that Dr Upton was barely doing any work and everyone knew not to rely on him actually turning up.

Almost makes you wonder if the trans identity was adopted pre-emptively as a protective shield against future assessments of professional (in)competence.

I got asked if I could personally sort a locum as me having elective surgery was inconvenient and didn't count as sick leave.

And also if I could come back sooner after said operation as I'd probably be fine.

Funnily enough my surgeon (at the same hospital) warned me that they would do this and on no account to go back before he advised, even if I felt perfectly fit and well.

@NotMaroonButRaspberry isn't it awful that we have so so many of these stories. But clearly none of them are hate crimes so we should just carry on and think about the menz.

@NotMaroonButRaspberry they are raspberry colour.... not quite maroon, not red, not pink, not salmon (they are the ones I'd have put the Glasgow lot in!).

I'll be wearing raspberry scrubs later today as I'm in a non theatre environment.

@AnnaMagnani I've also done a phased return with similar.

And one where I was meant to be working directly for my first week back with colleague support post hand injury to make sure that I could do all the practical tasks that form part of my daily job without compromising patient safety except the rota-admin person kept removing my rota buddy. I kept having to insist they were moved back or I wasn't doing the list.

How did such an absolute melt ever get through med school?

I'm going to keep my eyes peeled for them!

I told an anaesthetist that she was a lovely woman, so it was surprising she'd gone into a job which involved stabbing people with needles like a vampire. I was on a cocktail of drugs at the time, TBF, so my mental filters had left the building.

Oh and there was the time that I got bullied so much by the CEO that I got PTSD. And paid for all my own therapy afterwards.

If only I'd thought to make notes in my phone and identify as a man, it would all have been fine.

I have been lightly involved in exams and assessments for medicine and allied courses @NoBinturongsHereMate

Because these take place in HE, there's a whole suite of accomodations and measures that can be applied for and used such as extra reading time. I'll admit to being pretty surprised by the scheduling requests that were also accommodated, such as no exams before 11am, or afternoon assessment only.

While this may be the right and inclusive way to run things for an academic qualification, it does seem insufficient or even unkind to then expect these same students to work in live medical environments where reading lots of information quickly and staying awake and alert all night are just bread and butter of the job.

I can only imagine that there will be not uncommon occurrences of students failing to be able to make that shift between worlds and associated expectations

I thought I’d look up the policy which meant SP admitted to the harassment of Dr U (according to the policy) as it sounds weird.

One of Fife’s principles is to Ensure that the organisation has due regard for the European Convention of Human Rights (ECHR) in the discharge of its function:
https://www.nhsfife.org/about-us/policies-and-procedures/hr-policies-and-procedures/hr-policies/equality-diversity-human-rights-policy/
it also says quite rightly that all employees should be free from bullying and harassment.

looking at the EHR guidance it seems entirely possible that the hospital could have provided a female only changing room where trans women could not enter.
www.equalityhumanrights.com/equality/equality-act-2010/separate-and-single-sex-service-providers-guide-equality-act-sex-and#gender-reassignment-provisions-in-the-equality-act

Which is also confirmed by this survey commissioned by the conservatives:
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/call-for-input-incorrect-guidance-on-single-sex-spaces-and-gender-self-identification

is the problem that this clarity arrived after 24/12/23? Because it seems fairly clear today that if NHS Fife currently don’t offer women only changing rooms then they’re breaking the law?

A colleague side stepped to mainly doing med student education. Lovely woman and every inclined to 'be kind' but even she started complaining that it was all very well making all these accommodations, but at the end of the day she needed to produce people who could do the job and she wasn't sure she was.

@NotMaroonButRaspberry we had to generate special timetable documents last year as the traditional tabular format was too confusing for someone.

Did make me wonder how they would cope as an FY1 checking blood results which are traditionally presented in, erm, a tabular format. Not sure if some special adaptation has been devised to alter our electronic patient record too..

I narrowed my eyes suspiciously at an anaesthetist when we were debating the timing of an epidural and asked how long he had been qualified. In my defence I was already high on pethidine and gas and air. And he did look about 16.

And an interesting summary about who at Fife might have decided to pursue this case and how their diversity policy is weighted (possibly illegally) in favour of 2 out of the 9 protected characteristics
https://murrayblackburnmackenzie.org/2024/10/15/the-nhs-fife-case-what-do-we-know-about-how-decisions-have-been-made/

I'm seeing a lot of reposts with a lot of people wanting to show solidarity.

Currently £4964.

Its playing into the stereotype that women are overly emotional. I think its why its been emphasised in reporting that DU "burst into tears and had to be comforted by a senior colleague".