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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Neil Gaiman Accused Of Sexual Assault Pt III

296 replies

hihelenhi · 28/01/2025 14:27

A continuation of threads 1 & 2 now that things have moved on considerably, what with further episodes on the Tortoise podcast and the Vulture Article which blew the story out further into the mainstream

Previous Threads:

Thread 1: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womensrights/5112128-neil-gaiman-accused-of-sexual-assault

Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5150957-neil-gaiman-accused-of-sexual-assault-pt-ii

Podcasts & Vulture Article:
Tortoise:https://www.tortoisemedia.com/listen/master-the-allegations-against-neil-gaiman

Am I Broken? https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/s4-ep2-claire-i-ignored-it-and-i-believed-him-because/id1491575384?i=1000663604978

Vulture Article (archive): https://archive.is/HJtxW

Neil Gaiman accused of sexual assault | Mumsnet

https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/sandman-writer-neil-gaiman-denies-142813982.html Story still unfolding in the news

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5112128-neil-gaiman-accused-of-sexual-assault

OP posts:
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hihelenhi · 28/01/2025 23:06

Maplebean · 28/01/2025 23:03

The $275000 was actually to the artist who lived on his property. He asked her to leave when she rejected his sexual advances once and for all. He used her need for a home to illicit sex.

I initially was of the camp of ‘oh he’s just an arsehole’ when it all came out in the media. I’ve been a massive fan for 20 years. Read all the Sandman multiple times etc.

But listening to the podcasts a couple of times it really became clear to me that this was a pattern of behaviour which involved targeting a particular type of person and using his position to stomp over boundaries. The Vulture article to me sealed the deal for me that he is a rapist and is actually a really disturbed human being who should be exposed so that he doesn’t continue to have access to people and to protect his child.

AP is complicit in my opinion.

Yes, it's the pattern of behaviour that's the thing. And some of it decades apart.

I too agree AP is complicit. Finding girls for him, it seems. But not, as I said on the previous thread, responsible for his behaviour or choices. An enabler and also deeply exploitative of others by the sounds of it.

OP posts:
Maplebean · 28/01/2025 23:12

hihelenhi · 28/01/2025 23:06

Yes, it's the pattern of behaviour that's the thing. And some of it decades apart.

I too agree AP is complicit. Finding girls for him, it seems. But not, as I said on the previous thread, responsible for his behaviour or choices. An enabler and also deeply exploitative of others by the sounds of it.

The lies as well. On the phone to one victim says he has never been with a fan or someone her age etc and he has learnt a lesson from it. And yet he was doing it repeatedly. This to me is inexcusable as it shows he knew what he was doing was wrong as he has tried to make out like he’d never do that. Ugh!!!

hihelenhi · 28/01/2025 23:19

Maplebean · 28/01/2025 23:12

The lies as well. On the phone to one victim says he has never been with a fan or someone her age etc and he has learnt a lesson from it. And yet he was doing it repeatedly. This to me is inexcusable as it shows he knew what he was doing was wrong as he has tried to make out like he’d never do that. Ugh!!!

Yes. It is very calculated. As is the financial manipulation side of it.

OP posts:
BezMills · 29/01/2025 07:18

That feeling when the thread has been busy overnight and you guess 100% correctly why...

Keep on bumping the thread it's keeping the NG's terrible behaviour at the top of the list, where it belongs.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 29/01/2025 08:43

This user on Reddit claims to be a personal friend of one of the women and a potential witness in the U.K. case. Worth reading their posts.

www.reddit.com/u/TheJedibugs/s/14vWbx9pyX

jeffgoldblum · 29/01/2025 08:48

Good thread , about time all sleazy, abusive men realise they are not untouchable and held to account.

ColourByNumbers88 · 29/01/2025 09:12

Binglebong · 29/01/2025 01:35

An article from Rachel Johnson about publishing the allegations. Ends a bit weird, seems unfinished. https://www.standard.co.uk/comment/neil-gaiman-accusations-new-york-magazine-article-scarlett-pavlovich-b1207406.html

Thanks for sharing this. It's like RJ is apologising about the outcome. NG losing contracts is the least I'd expect after the podcast series. They knew the extent of the allegations. This seems a bit naive. It makes me think that she's suffering hostility from mutual friends because she reported it.

pinkgrevillea · 29/01/2025 09:47

I already believed the women, but the thing that make him 100% guilty in my eyes (and yes, I'm aware it's not the same as a trial) was him stating that he 'half remembered' some things.

I have someone in my life who was at times horrendously abusive and when challenged on that behaviour would always go vague and say, "Oh, I can't really remember that."

Not, I don't remember that. Because that's too direct, too much of a statement.

Nope, it's "I half remember, or "I don't really remember" - which works so much better for someone who is sly and secretive because you don't actually get an answer, and also because people like this absolutely cannot bear to be seen, so everything is murky and confused and half remembered.

His "half remembering" is absolutely classic abuser language. How convenient that your memory is so full of holes. How very convenient.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 29/01/2025 10:12

Nope, it's "I half remember, or "I don't really remember" - which works so much better for someone who is sly and secretive because you don't actually get an answer, and also because people like this absolutely cannot bear to be seen, so everything is murky and confused and half remembered.

I imagine plausible deniability is important in these types of cases in case you trip yourself up on specific details and your accuser can prove certain things happened that you had denied. Better not to lie about things directly.

Hermyknee · 29/01/2025 11:35

The big new Coraline musical is cancelled. All that work by theatre freelancers gone. Really sad for them. Hope they get paid. This will cause big shock waves in a small industry.

CorruptedCauldron · 29/01/2025 12:11

If Gaiman was innocent, he’d be shouting it from the rooftops. He’d be suing Tortoise and all the other media outlets, suing the women for defamation, and fighting with every fibre of his being to clear his name. He’s got money, after all.

Instead, he says he half-recognises some of the things and realises he needs to work on himself and do better. And he hasn’t spoken out earlier out of “respect” for his accusers. Those are not the words of an innocent man who has just been unfairly smeared as an abuser.

I am disappointed in Rachel Johnson for being shaken by these consequences for Gaiman. I don’t much like cancellation either and we know people can be cancelled for ridiculous things like having the wrong opinion, but Gaiman has admitted to enough bad stuff to merit a fall from grace in the public eye.

In the absence of proper criminal procedures, social cancellation is a kind of justice. Why should those women have to see him being fawned over in the media as some kind of comic book darling, raking in millions from all the TV and film adaptations of his work, when they know what he did to them?

A decent 61-year-old guy does not get in the bath uninvited with his new 23-year-old employee and stick his fingers up her. As if that wasn’t bad enough, she was a lesbian, she was alone and vulnerable, and had no intention of getting it on with Gaiman.

Was he a rapist? Difficult to prove one way or another, but we do know he’s a sleazy creepy bugger who treats women like meat while pretending to be a feminist ally.

Maplebean · 29/01/2025 12:20

CorruptedCauldron · 29/01/2025 12:11

If Gaiman was innocent, he’d be shouting it from the rooftops. He’d be suing Tortoise and all the other media outlets, suing the women for defamation, and fighting with every fibre of his being to clear his name. He’s got money, after all.

Instead, he says he half-recognises some of the things and realises he needs to work on himself and do better. And he hasn’t spoken out earlier out of “respect” for his accusers. Those are not the words of an innocent man who has just been unfairly smeared as an abuser.

I am disappointed in Rachel Johnson for being shaken by these consequences for Gaiman. I don’t much like cancellation either and we know people can be cancelled for ridiculous things like having the wrong opinion, but Gaiman has admitted to enough bad stuff to merit a fall from grace in the public eye.

In the absence of proper criminal procedures, social cancellation is a kind of justice. Why should those women have to see him being fawned over in the media as some kind of comic book darling, raking in millions from all the TV and film adaptations of his work, when they know what he did to them?

A decent 61-year-old guy does not get in the bath uninvited with his new 23-year-old employee and stick his fingers up her. As if that wasn’t bad enough, she was a lesbian, she was alone and vulnerable, and had no intention of getting it on with Gaiman.

Was he a rapist? Difficult to prove one way or another, but we do know he’s a sleazy creepy bugger who treats women like meat while pretending to be a feminist ally.

Agree with all your points except I do think he is a rapist based on the accounts of Kendra. She said she had an excruciating UTI and told him she was not going to have penetrative sex under any circumstances due to the pain. She told him no multiple times and he penetrated her anyway. Isn’t that rape? I believe her.

CuriousAlien · 29/01/2025 12:37

Things I'm glad about:

  1. Neil Gaiman can no longer virtue signal saying things like "believe all women"
  2. women coming into contact with Neil Gaiman in the future will have the stories of the women who have spoken about him
  3. the women who have spoken about him now have each other's stories to put their experiences into context and also in some cases they're in contact with each other
  4. anyone paying attention can learn more about coercive relationships and abuse in general

These consequences are the ones that interest me most. And also why I'm really glad that Rachel Johnson did what she did, particularly with Tortoise. Cancellation probably merits its own discussion. But since Neil Gaiman was quite happily contributing to the ecosystem of cancellation and call out culture it's hard to see why he shouldn't also die by that sword. The justice system also needs its own discussion. Both of these things do get their own threads.

Oh and I'd like the spam omelette with spinach, cheese and tomato but no spam please. Spam is disgusting though I do understand that some people have a taste for it.

pinkgrevillea · 29/01/2025 12:58

All his so-called "cancellation" proves to me is that the courts and the police don't protect women, and this was their way of being heard. It's called the fourth estate for a reason, when every other avenue fails you go to the paper.

pinkgrevillea · 29/01/2025 12:59

[And the first person to tell me to threaten to go to the paper when a dodgy boss didn't pay me was a journalist turned lawyer.] It worked. Bless you L, wherever you are.

CorruptedCauldron · 29/01/2025 14:03

Maplebean · 29/01/2025 12:20

Agree with all your points except I do think he is a rapist based on the accounts of Kendra. She said she had an excruciating UTI and told him she was not going to have penetrative sex under any circumstances due to the pain. She told him no multiple times and he penetrated her anyway. Isn’t that rape? I believe her.

Yes, I think it was rape too. I believe all the women who have come forward with allegations against Gaiman. It is notoriously difficult to get justice for rape victims though. It becomes he said, she said. For now, at least he’s been outed as a vile sex creep.

Villagetoraiseachild · 29/01/2025 15:23

Hermyknee · 29/01/2025 11:35

The big new Coraline musical is cancelled. All that work by theatre freelancers gone. Really sad for them. Hope they get paid. This will cause big shock waves in a small industry.

Yes. Came on my newsfeed via a BBC website.

Villagetoraiseachild · 29/01/2025 15:37

See here.

Neil Gaiman Accused Of Sexual Assault Pt III
Iamnotalemming · 29/01/2025 15:38

I am a bit disappointed with that article by RJ. She sounds defensive and it does end strangely, like she had another para and it got cut by the editor or the legal team.

Beowulfa · 29/01/2025 15:47

When it all came out about Lance Armstrong, charity shops were overflowing with his "inspirational" autobiography. Jimmy Savile's long out of print autobiography goes for quite a lot second hand now. Interesting times for Gaiman fans with lots of volumes.

pinkgrevillea · 29/01/2025 16:21

I think the article is good - she's attempting to direct people back to the real story, which is speaking about about violence against women, and away from the whole 'cancellation' of his career, which while it's bad for him and for all those who made money through him, is nowhere near as serious as the trauma his behaviour has caused to these women.

YourAmplePlumPoster · 29/01/2025 19:35

"Coraline play cancelled."
A lot of people have lost their jobs. How cool is that?

JazzyJelly · 29/01/2025 19:37

YourAmplePlumPoster · 29/01/2025 19:35

"Coraline play cancelled."
A lot of people have lost their jobs. How cool is that?

Absolutely! Another reason to hate Neil Gaiman.

YourAmplePlumPoster · 29/01/2025 19:51

Well it is cool isn't it? His play has been cancelled and a lot of people in a precarious profession have lost their jobs. That'll teach em 👏