Neil Gaiman Accused Of Sexual Assault Pt III

[hihelenhi]

A continuation of threads 1 & 2 now that things have moved on considerably, what with further episodes on the Tortoise podcast and the Vulture Article which blew the story out further into the mainstream

Previous Threads:

Thread 1: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womensrights/5112128-neil-gaiman-accused-of-sexual-assault

Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5150957-neil-gaiman-accused-of-sexual-assault-pt-ii

Podcasts & Vulture Article:
Tortoise:https://www.tortoisemedia.com/listen/master-the-allegations-against-neil-gaiman

Am I Broken? https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/s4-ep2-claire-i-ignored-it-and-i-believed-him-because/id1491575384?i=1000663604978

Vulture Article (archive): https://archive.is/HJtxW

By the way, Kevin Spacey was cancelled, cleared of all charges in a court of law and remains cancelled, in spite of being innocent. This is how cancel culture works, right?

Absolutely! Another reason to hate Neil Gaiman.

Indeed. Entirely his fault.

I am not sure that cancel culture as such is the same as no-one wanting anything to do with you because they think you are a sleaze-bag.

Or with backers pulling out of a financial endeavour because they no longer think it will make money.

Just tell the people who have lost their jobs on that production that. They are people who have rents or mortgages to pay, families to support or just themselves to support. All on the basis of "allegations." But that's the way cancel culture works. Anyone now in the arts is going to be subject to it.

Hello again! So what's your recommendation?

I dunno. Try talking to people who've lost their jobs and are trying to get their shit together to pay rent and food bills. But, great, we've taken someone down on hearsay. Job done.

US office hours

Ah, that makes more sense than UK wine o'clock.

making the same non-point over and over and over again is just so fucking boring. but as you say, office hours might explain it

I doubt they are feeling very charitable towards Gaiman. Fancy pouring a load of creative energy and money into a project vision then finding out all that’s been revealed.

The only good thing in the long run work-wise is it means that different writers will get a chance of filling those schedules. There’s space to fill which is an opportunity for those better writers.

You obviously don't work in the creative industries. This is people who've been preparing, rehearsing etc, a lot of money has gone into this project. Now they're out on the street. The theatre itself might be in jeopardy with the lost revenue. Everything hangs by a string in the industry. But.....justice has been done.

Absolutely! Neil Gaiman should have not ruined these people's lives too. Desperately sad, though obviously nowhere near the effect on the victims.

Maybe he shouldn't have been a repulsive exploitative abuser?

No. The women are in the wrong for objecting. This is definitely the way.

FOTTFSOFAWYGTFOSM.

Yes, Gaiman has fucked up a lot of people’s lives with his abusive behaviour, including the women he abused and those that will now suffer once removed due to the cancellations.

Gaiman has a lot to answer for.

I know a lot of people in the creative industries. They put their heart and soul into projects to try and recreate the writer’s vision. It is very distasteful of you to think they would only be thinking of the money. They do need the money but they went into this in good faith which is now destroyed.

Go back at look at the link in this thread to the creatives’ statement from the comic book. The feeling is very different to your capitalist outlook.

People don't go into the creative industries for the job security. Moving between projects, often at short notice, is part and parcel of the career.

First rule of misogyny right here. The natural consequences of Gaiman being an abuser are somehow the fault of the women who disclosed abuse.

Bullshit like this is why women stay silent and abusers get away with it.

ICYMI: https://bleedingcool.com/comics/dark-horse-cancels-neil-gaiman-anansi-boys-comic-over-abuse-claims/

"Last week, Anansi Boys 7 hit stands. It will be the last issue. Dark Horse will not release a trade. I am incredibly proud of the work we did on the book. @smartinbrough.bsky.social 's lines were fantastic, @sotocolor.bsky.social 's hues were extraordinary, @david-mack.bsky.social slayed the covers. But all of that pales. Anansi Boys is about two brothers, twins. One is meek, timid, like a flopsy, set-upon puppy. The other brother is narcissistic, hedonistic, governed by nothing other than his own pursuit of sensation and pleasure. They seem so different, but they are very much flip sides of the same coin. Literally. I never gave too much thought about that. Until now. My heart breaks for the survivors and any pain seeing these books on the shelves might have caused."

Bolding mine.

"You mustn't tell anyone what your cousin did to you, it will destroy the family."

"If you tell anyone, I'll have your husband fired."

"He's been so generous to our community, you wouldn't want to risk that now?"

THE EXACT SAME LOGIC.

It's a bit like a small publisher being swallowed up by a big one - everyone panics but what it leaves room for, as someone said upthread, is for new players to emerge. Like a big, dead, poisonous, rotting-from-the-inside tree finally keeling over in a forest (referring to NG, not small publishers.)

Exactly!

It's the "Stay silent for us/me" repulsive garbage from people we care about that has kept women voiceless and treated horribly for centuries

I have enough empathy for all those people’s livelihoods tied up in Gaiman projects alongside the women he hurt. It is a non sequitur to imply caring about one precludes caring about the other. Trying to setup such a claim is at worst intellectually dishonest, but at best maybe you struggle to see the whole landscape. The cause for this regrettable chain of events is Gaiman’s callousness and abuse not in fact the decision of these women to come forward or journalists to diligently research and publish what they found.

Whilst it is true that what Gaiman did has not yet met the rigorous burden of proof required for a criminal trial, and not one person has said he should see the inside of a prison cell without one. However based on damning words he himself has said it has very easily met the bar for on the balance of probability he has abused and behaved in a predatory manner towards multiple women.

Taking your points on board I’d be inclined to campaign for morality clauses being mandatory in contracts where this or that creative lead behaves in such a morally abhorrent manner that causes their reputation to cause a comic, tv show, musical or stage play to be cancelled, so anyone involved in production can bring a civil case forward (via their unions), to recover some financial compensation as remedy for wasting everyone’s time.

The notion that we should never speak truth to power for fear of collateral damage is nonsensicle.

They’re not out on the street, they’re out of work, until they find their next job. It’s the nature of the industry that there are only ever short term contracts and even those are at the mercy of a popularity contest to be profitable and provide work.
Everyone in the arts and tv world knows it, which is why it’s dominated by the section of society that can afford to do a job so precarious. They’ll move on to the next job, which will be just as precarious.
Such drama, are you bewailing the lost work every time a tv series is cancelled for poor viewing figures? 🙄

are you bewailing the lost work every time a tv series is cancelled for poor viewing figures?

I’m gonna guess only when a woman can be blamed. Where’s the fun otherwise?

So @YourAmplePlumPoster - can I check what you’re suggesting please?

We have a man who even you admit is “sleazy” and a “prick” - which means that you accept the stories are true.

Multiple women in multiple situations have been exploited and coerced by him. He has paid £££ or at least offered pay ££££, and his public apology admits to “half remembering” and says he will try to “do better”.

Whether you agree he meets the threshold for criminality is almost irrelevant. There’s a consistency across the women’s stories. A powerful man who took advantage of vulnerable women for sexual kicks. Which he’s tacitly acknowledged.

So, given none of the above is in dispute, what do YOU think the outcome should be?

Are you suggesting there should be no consequences at all and we should all continue to support him, despite our feelings on reading the accounts of those women?

Creatives trade on their reputation. Their popularity ebbs and flows alongside their reputation. I mean, look at JKR. Some of us love her even more for the outspoken way she seeks to defend women, while others won’t touch her books again because they don’t agree with her views. JKR has been cancelled by MULTIPLE venues and all she’s ever done is express an opinion. NG did actual, real, objective harm to multiple women - which he’s admitted with his half-arsed “apology” - do you not think it’s reasonable for people to say “that’s not behaviour that I’m willing to endorse”?

You also haven’t answered whether you believe that court convictions are the only measure that we should use, given that just 3% of rape cases go to trial and only 62% of that 3% are convicted.

If you believe there has to be a court conviction to “be fair”, presumably you don’t agree with the cancellation of Jimmy Saville? He was never convicted in court. Applying exactly the same logic, you’re saying that Jimmy Saville shouldn’t be cancelled and we should all still be watching him and celebrating his work.

Can you answer please?