Trump announces executive order that says legally there are only 2 genders (hmmm did he mis-speak and meant sex?)

[IwantToRetire]

Well this will add to the confusion.

Have just heard him use the word gender, even though earlier news reports had said he would say only 2 sexes.

https://uk.news.yahoo.com/trump-sign-order-proclaiming-only-160700963.html

Okay you can nitpick all you want and yes, persecution was a bit of a strong word, but I think there is ample evidence of transpeople being discriminated against.

from Amnesty international country report 2023:

In January, the UK government blocked the Gender Recognition Reform Act passed by the Scottish Parliament from becoming law. The devolved Scottish government challenged this decision in the Court of Session, but lost the challenge in December.

In March, the government-commissioned Casey Report on the standards of behaviour and internal culture at the Metropolitan Police was published. It found numerous issues, including institutional racism, sexism and homophobia. In May, the outgoing Chief Constable of Police Scotland gave a speech in which he admitted that institutional racism, sexism, misogyny and discrimination existed in the police force.

Human rights in United Kingdom Amnesty International

But under your system, females with trans identities belong to the third sex. Why would they have access to spaces that are restricted to those of the female sex?

I am surprised that someone who has taught critical thinking doesn't know that to engage in a debate, you need to make arguments that are fact-based and address the issue at hand, not attack the person behind or seek to legitimize your views simply by stating your credentials.

Because they are biologically women. I have never argued that transgender men are not still men. I am just aware that they are frequently subject to harassment from other men so should be offered safe spaces. If the way to give them that is defining them as a third sex then that's ok with me. There may be other ways to achieve safe spaces for transgender people too? what are your ideas for safe spaces for transgender people?

Really interesting post thank you.

As someone who loathed Trump in 2016 and just didn't understand at all why the public would have voted for such a man, I've spent the years since carefully listening and trying to understand this phenomenon.

Brexit, Trans, Covid, BLM,...I'm obviously slow to the party as some saw it coming early 2010's but it took all of this for the scales to fall from my eyes and realise the left (which I was part of) had become authoritarian elitists forcing identity politics on the public they loathe, and there was a revolt underway against this.

Trump is the force unleashed to counter it. It had to be someone extreme in personality, non ideological and unconventional in their approach.

I think it took me a long time to understand, so it really bemuses me that so many are still holding to the left as if it is still the moral high ground fighting for the marginalised. How can you not see how others see you? Why are you not curious about why others see it so differently? Life and politics are not games of Goodies and Baddies, they are shaped by human nature and patterns and no one is immune to that.

I think people don't see it because the lure of believing yourself to be good and righteous is just too seductive to let go of.

In March, the government-commissioned Casey Report on the standards of behaviour and internal culture at the Metropolitan Police was published. It found numerous issues, including institutional racism, sexism and homophobia. In May, the outgoing Chief Constable of Police Scotland gave a speech in which he admitted that institutional racism, sexism, misogyny and discrimination existed in the police force.

None of that mentions "transphobia". As predicted institutionalised misogyny, sexism, homophobia and racism are the real problems.

In January, the UK government blocked the Gender Recognition Reform Act passed by the Scottish Parliament from becoming law. The devolved Scottish government challenged this decision in the Court of Session, but lost the challenge in December.

It's not "discrimination" to fail to pass a law most people in the country don't agree with.

yes it is okay to join words together as you please, in fact, that is what a lot of creative writing is about. Doing something new is ok.

Carry on ignoring arguments that do not fit with your worldviews, that is a great way to grow as a person.

By ‘transgender men’ do you actually mean transwomen? What with this and your use of the word ‘colored’ in a way I don’t think I’ve seen in the wild since the 70s I’m starting to wonder whether you aren’t just here to tell people off, rather than from any point of conviction.

Anyway to recap. We were discussing the necessity of defining sex in legislation in order to maintain female only spaces. You’re ’because they’re biological women’ really doesn’t address that. If you say that legally some spaces are only for those of the female sex then you need a working legal definition of who the female sex are. Creating a third sex doesn’t do that. Quite the reverse, it muddies the waters.

most of the people in the UK, not in Scotland, wasn't it? I guess you also think Amnesty International is a left wing extremist group, since they are the ones who classify it as discrimination.

I used the word coloured because I thought writing POC' on this forum would trigger the MN woke alert and make you unable to read the rest of the sentence. I shall henceforth refrain from such accommodation.

Again, I was being accommodating to your viewpoints calling them transgender men but yes I mean transgender women.

You did not answer my question - what ideas do you have for creating safe spaces for transgender people? or do you not think they should have any?

Let's go with the third sex idea...create spaces, label them 'for use of the third sex' and see how trans people respond...

I really think GC feminists would be the least of your problems as the instigator of this solution @leftorrightnow 😂
Go for it.

do you think that homophobia is unrelate to transphobia?

You’ve used POC previously so cut the BS.

I didn’t answer your question because you added it in a later edit.

I’m happy for an increase in third spaces for anyone who doesn’t feel comfortable in spaces separated by sex. I’d encourage sporting bodies to have open and female categories, as many do. None of which require us to make up a fictional third sex.

I think there is a lot of truth in that parts of the left has become elitist and removed from the working class. However, it is important to note that we do actually have a Labour government at the moment, and many European countries still have center-left governments. Those are mainly the countries where the left has gone hardline on immigration. Anti-immigration was much more important to Trump's success than gender issues, lets not forget.

Trump is not, however, a champion of the working classes, but a very, very wealthy individual who doesn't have strong ideological or moral convictions other than his own interests. He says and does things that are contradictory all the time, and he has been put in power mainly due to the failure of the Democratic party to find a suitable candidate to oppose him in time. Don't forget that the election was quite close. It was not a landslide win by any means.

do you think that homophobia is unrelate to transphobia?

I think homophobia is homophobia ie prejudice against people who are same sex attracted (either exclusively or not) and trans activists shouldn't conflate the two. Quite often any genuine prejudice is homophobia rather than about "trans" though.

forgot I used it as some point, I just know it triggers a lot of people so generally try not to.

How do you think we can ensure third spaces and open sporting categories without acknowledging the existence of transgender people? Genuinely interested. If you think we can, then I am all for that!

Trump obviously comes from the elite but it's the working class that are supporting him.

Like Boris and the red wall.

There is also a blind spot about the working class in the belief they want rescuing and looking after. In fact they seem to want someone who speaks their language, offers optimism and they don't seem to care if they are posh billionaires, with questionable personal lives.

And they don't seem to like being chastised or for it by other elites like Obama, Oprah or Starmer looking at the polls.

you do not need to label them. But of course in creating policies you need to consider who they are for. They are spaces where everyone is allowed. At the end of the day a lot of this conversation is theoretical. In reality, public toilets do not have guards or gender identifying scanners. A transgender person who looks like the gender they represent as would and can always use a women only space as no one would be the wiser. And if they did you no harm why would you mind anyway. I just dont understand how you all would like to se transgender people live. What toilets should transwomen use so as not to be harassed by men?

Black men are shifting in bigger numbers than black women, black youth are shifting much faster than older black voters, and there's a bigger shift among black voters in the urban north than the rural south. All of those things are explicable. But the shift is everywhere.

Let's say that you're a black woman living in somewhere like Detroit or Cleveland. Democrats have run your city for most of the past 100 years. Infrastructure is crumbling, crime is rampant, the schools are terrible and the immigration surge has put pressure on public services that weren't great to start with. And you've just been to the grocery store and paid $5 for a dozen eggs, when you could buy eggs for 99 cents when Trump was last in office.

You might say, as Trump puts it, "what have I got to lose?" Or you might not vote for Trump, but you probably won't be very inspired by an elite Democrat with elite Democrat priorities. Bernie Sanders might once have been a vehicle for those frustrations, but he's even older than Biden.

Obama won two terms, consecutively. Think he did pretty well?

Again, I repeat, the election was very close. Lots of working class voters, and almost all black votes, voted for Harris.

Yes, Trump speaks the language of some of the working class. Mainly, he speaks to the lowest common denominator and spews a lot of nonsense.

yes that is what Hana Arendt says: Totalitarianism begins in contempt for what you have. The second step is the notion: “Things must change—no matter how. Anything is better than what we have.”

@MalagaNights As far as the extreme personality goes, I think it's necessary for a disruptor, but I always think of the GOP convention in 2020 which was held in Cleveland.

Freddie Gray of the Spectator was doing vox pops and asked a middle aged black woman what she thought of Trump. She said, "I don't like Trump. He's too black."

Freddie was bemused, but I know exactly what she meant.

If you're a working class voter in Cleveland, would you give a flying frig how crass the candidate is, if you think he might kickstart the economy?

Oops you did it again!

You may 'think there is ample evidence of transpeople being discriminated against' but yet again you've linked to something that doesn't prove what you claim it proves.

The webpage you linked to doesn't mention transphobia at all - unless you count a few lines on the Gender Recognition Reform Act in Scotland.
You yourself point out that it refers to 'institutional racism, sexism and homophobia' - not transphobia, note - in some police forces.

So no ample evidence of transpeople being discriminated against. Or am I nit-picking again?

TBH I think that your main point is you can’t stand Trump, which is fair enough, but this is just something you’ve latched onto to have a go. You don’t seem to have much of a grasp of the issues, and a lot of what you’ve posted is muddled and contradictory (accusing others of being in thrall to rigid gender roles for example while talking about dressing like women or how women post). You talk of a third sex but previously seem to argue that no one ever said there weren’t two sexes. You state that transwomen (in your parlance transgender women) are men but still say ‘well they can still go in the women’s toilets”. You’re all over the place.