Trump announces executive order that says legally there are only 2 genders (hmmm did he mis-speak and meant sex?)

[IwantToRetire]

Well this will add to the confusion.

Have just heard him use the word gender, even though earlier news reports had said he would say only 2 sexes.

https://uk.news.yahoo.com/trump-sign-order-proclaiming-only-160700963.html

He's also taken down the USA Govts Reproductive Rights Website.

Oh and he's a rapist.

Mare you celebrating that, too? Or do you just pick and choose?

Again my concern is many trans people have been living as the opposite sex for years. Mostly under the radar until recently.
Another good question @Princessconsuelabananahammock9

We don't know yet.

But it is still important that the law is clarified based on reality then we have to work out the real life application for some individuals from there based on their equal human rights.
But pretending they are the opposite sex is no longer the solution.

Again my concern is many trans people have been living as the opposite sex for years. Mostly under the radar until recently.

What happens to them?

I don't know. It will have to work itself out as @MalagaNights has said. I support the same level of protection from workplace discrimination and harassment for everyone. Medical cases will need to be decided by insurers I guess, or self funded. There are lots of people who have issues with getting medication, not just people who identify as the opposite sex. And as pp said, there is no need to start taking wrong sex hormones if you haven't already started.

I don't agree with most of what trans activists want, so I'm not seeing a problem except in a few cases where there is a medical need, and only then because I don't know enough to say there isn't.

Thank you so much for saying this.

It's interesting because I used to be on here a lot more because I do agree with most things problem on here say.

I have been called a terf before.

But I am mindful of any laws and what they mean in practice.

One of the reasons I started following Jordan Peterson initially. He was fighting a law around language, and I agreed with him.

I completely agree. I have a different attitude to women who transition than men.

How about we agree that some people who have had major surgery can continue to be supplied opposite sex hormones @Princessconsuelabananahammock9 but no one new can start? Fair?

Agreed.

I had a step mom briefly who was a social worker and abused me horribly mainly around the fact I am adopted.

She would blatantly mock me in front of her family for this and ask probing questions.

She worked with children! Terrifying in retrospect.

Yes, isn't that what they call a grandfather clause? No pun intended

This must be the hundredth time it's been said but.... You can support one thing a person does whilst being utterly opposed and repelled by other things they do

Not forced, obviously......but there would have to be an acceptance that they remain the sex they are for most intents and purposes. The trans identity would be a personal thing, between them and their loved ones and friends only. No compulsion on everyone else to have to believe or accept it.

Which is part of the issue.

So for example my partner looks like a man. I know no one ever believes me on here but he does.

He's tall and muscular and very very hairy. It's actually hilarious where his hair has grown.

He would prefer more of a beard than a hairy ass. Lol

He has a male name.

Would he need to explain to people who call him a man that he is a biological woman?

Would he have to share that with employers?

I mean he does and is fine with that here, but I wonder what will happen in the states?

I have to say I agree, and I'd need time (I suspect not too much time) to work through why that is. I suspect it is because of my knowledge and experience of men and women. I don't suspect women of dodgy, duplicitous motivations in identifying as trans men. I do, however, believe that to be true in many cases of men identifying as trans women. Not all, but that suspicion is definitely there.

Not forced, obviously......but there would have to be an acceptance that they remain the sex they are for most intents and purposes. The trans identity would be a personal thing, between them and their loved one and friends.

Exactly, that would be fine for me. No more gaslighting. As Datun says, it's mostly not the same with women who identify as men anyway.

But what does that mean?
.
Who would they have to tell they are trans to?

Riiiiight. Ok you’ve stated your opinion. Global conspiracy yada yada. On balance I’ll listen to the less unhinged and better informed posters on this topic thanks.

Even if your partner passes relatively well, there will always be clues and people will always suspect. I see transmen quite frequently where I live, and it is always fairly obvious.

The birth certificate will say female, and also passports etc.

I personally believe it's because of lived experience.

Trans women typically have decades of male privilege. Some bring that with them and feel entitled to continue to tell women. What to do and how to behave.

Socialisation matters.

THAT is a huge issue and one that needs to be worked on when we raise our children.

But what does that mean?
.
Who would they have to tell they are trans to?

They wouldn't have to go around proclaiming it, they just wouldn't be able to claim that they were the opposite sex. It's not about "trans" anything.

Can I ask why you find that difficult to get your head around? It seems perfectly clear to me.

Nope!

Trans is trans.

If they say they are trans they are trans. No ifs no buts no maybes.

This man is as much a transwoman as Caitlyn Jenner, Laverne Cox and Isla Bryson.

There is no question as to whether he is actually trans. He said he was so he is.

I am answering your questions only based on my thoughts on the matter. I dont know enough about the entire argument and there are people here far more knoledgeable than me:
Is there a reason they can't legislate for biological women only in women's spaces and still let trans women exist? Yes- I would argue for a 3rd space. I suspect trans women are afraid of violence by men if they go into male toilets just as women are afraid of violence by men who can be trans or in drag or just feel like going around in a skirt that day. So males need to be stopped from abusing others, women, or trans women.
Why would adults who have transitioned or are choosing to transition not have access to hormone treatment? They can. They will have to be subject to the market just as everyone else. I do believe that women who need HRT as a result of menopause or cancer should have priority. Most transewomen have no hormone treatment.
Why can't they have unisex spaces as well? See above
Why do people insist on calling trans women, men? Why can't they be called trans women? Trans activists don't want this. Also trans activists insist on calling women 'ciswomen' which makes women a subset of their own sex and is a label imposed on women by the trans movement.
I get a little confused about what people actually would like the outcome to be?
For those who have already transitioned what does this mean exactly?
What would make women fighting on behalf of this executive order feel good?
Is it just protecting women's spaces, or do women need the eradication of trans people to feel protected?
I don't want trans people to be eradicated. I want transpeople to live their lives free from aggression from men ( who are the ones murdering them, not women) but male violence is not talked about by trans activists. They spend more time excusing people issuing rape and death threats to gender critical women and hounding them out of their careers than they do addressing male violence against women and trans women. I would like there to be an end to self ID, so if you are transgender you have to access counselling services that explain the consequences of cross sex hormones on your body before you have them, then you can get a GRC for as long as you are accessing treatment. If you are a fetishist, drag Queen, queer, feel like a woman on Tuesdays or when you have been convicted of a criminal offence, have fake tits and a penis then you have no access to female spaces at all.

I guess when applying for a job, you'd have to put the corerct sex marker down, but there may be a space for you to say you have a male gender identity. Beyond that, it would be between you and the employer.........and I imagine you might choose to use a neutral toilet facility if there was one.

I'd imagine you might introduce yourself using your adopted name - and people/colleagues would therefore use that, but they might well refer to you as she if that is how they instinctively perceive you.

Well, it’s you that actually said it.

I mean that's fine if people clock hi. He absolutely passes in my experience and if anything has a slightly flamboyant gay man vibe.

He gets hit on by a lot of gay men! Lol

But I suppose then for those who " kinda " pass, how does that work?

If I suspect someone is trans do I just start calling them a woman ? Do I ask if they are trans?

How would this work?

Do people have to out themselves now?

I do wonder whether the persistent left wing scolders do so out of fear and denial that the western political landscape is changing and it’s “interesting” times for so many of us.

For about 70 years we’ve had a broad consensus post-ww2 on society values, in what it means to lean left or right politically. Our grandparents and parents looked at the ruin of so much of Europe in the 1940s and said never again. Tolerance and respect, and mutual assistance became virtues, people learned the hard way not to trust demagogues and populists, wanted integrity in their leaders who also knew that “jaw jaw is better than war war”. In the USA, it was a confidence that American values were so correct that they should be shared by more of the planet, and they would help other countries get there, one way or another.

It appears to me that that consensus is now slipping away, and the lessons learned so hard by our parents and grandparents will have to be learned all over again. Trump is not the only populist demagogue who flirts with authoritarianism, he’s just exceptionally good at self publicity. That philosophy is on the rise across “western” countries, and at the same time many political parties are shifting on what they stand for. Big shifts like when the Democrats stopped being the party of the racist South and started opposing segregation. In the UK it is now the Tories who appeal to the working class person not Labour. Labour by no measure can be considered a classic “left wing, socialist” party any more (and anyone who tries to convince me they are “far left” will get nowhere with me).

i think we’ll all have to realign our voting intentions over the next few election cycles as left becomes right, up becomes down etc. Personally, my values have not changed, but as so many of us noted in the threads before last years UK election, I’m currently politically homeless. I see the scolders and purity police as people who have not accepted this change is happening and want to use fear to influence the voting, ironically just like the demagogues do. We so desperately need to have civilised conversations but as a society I fear we’re no longer capable of doing it any more.

@Princessconsuelabananahammock9
I just wanted to say thank you for bringing your perspective to the discussion here. I might agree with you on some things but not others, but in my opinion you've been very open and honest with good faith. Good faith is not something we see brought by people who want to debate MN very often. It's also good to learn from other people's genuine perspectives.
So thank you.