Three-day ban on Reddit for “hate”

[ConversingWithStrangers]

The only thing I can think of is posting on a UK sub about male violence. A man said that it’s not just men who have a problem with being violent because he’d been assaulted by a trans woman. I replied, “how did you know your assailant was trans?”.

They literally have subs for men to masturbate to videos of women who have a look of being “dead behind the eyes” they’ve been abused so much.

(It’s either that or somebody doesn’t like my crochet advice).

but rather a deeply ingrained sense that exists independent of someone’s ability to make sense of it on a conscious level.

Ok, explain this then. How? If someone has a deeply ingrained sense that exists independent of someone’s ability to make sense of it, how can anyone confirm it exists?

And if you start to try and make sense of it, and you consciously think you’re female, when objective reality confirms you’re not, why does it follow that the way to proceed is to allow the subconscious/now conscious thought to take precedence over the objective reality?

People keep referring to the “original meaning” of words which is also very weird.
For example, gender critical people are very fixated on a definition of sex that is routed in chromosomes. But Why do you think the original meaning of woman was defined by karyotypes and didn’t include trans women? Woman is a very old word. The discovery of chromosomes is very recent in comparison .

You....do realise that "women" is a word for a category of people, right?

Oh here we go. The thread is taking its usual direction. Can’t answer any questions so we’ll deviate into DSDs and bunkum science instead.

So predictable.

The the discovery of male women is even more recent than that.

Ah ok, this is significant (Italics mine)

"as the "feeling" of what sex their body should be on a subconscious level"

So I do want to talk about this but before I do can you please clarify whether this "unconscious sex" you have been talking about is a feeling of alignment with social gender (ie the non-physical elements of gender) or a feeling of alignment with a specific body type? Based on the rest of your posting I have been assuming the former but perhaps I misunderstood.

why does it follow that the way to proceed is to allow the subconscious/now conscious thought should take precedence over the objective reality?

It’s not about what “should” be the case, it’s about what is. For an trans person, this experience of sex can be completely overwhelming. It can’t be suppressed or overcome. It can cause profound distress - akin to trying to suppress one’s sexuality,

I’m not sure I can answer that. What do you mean by social gender?

And for many WOMEN, it is profoundly distressing to be forced to share what are supposed to be single sex spaces with MALE PEOPLE.

We cannot see their "subconscious sex", remember? Only their real one.

Why is their distress important and ours not?

So the subconscious thing that somehow becomes conscious unintentionally takes precedence over objective reality, and the solution is to keep going along with that? And change the entire body outside of this subconscious thing that becomes conscious to phenotypically match the subconscious thing that somehow becomes conscious?

Why is changing the body the solution, rather than helping rationalise the subconscious thing that somehow becomes conscious to fit better with objective reality?

Oh dear.

Can you answer the question please?

I would like you to focus on actual women for a minute rather than just "trans people this, trans people that".

Why do our feelings not matter?

Why is changing the body the solution, rather than helping rationalise the subconscious thing that somehow becomes conscious to fit better with objective reality?

Because you can’t “rationalise” someone out of being transgender any more than you can rationalise someone out of being gay. It just doesn’t work like that. Therapy can’t “cure” someone of being trans.

This is just all so incredibly childish.

Who said anything about “cure”?

I’m talking about acceptance of reality. Are you saying that the only solution for people who think they’re trans is to continue facilitating a fallacy? And cause harm to the body in facilitating that fallacy? I don’t recall how that happens with someone’s sexuality.

Is that the only solution in your view?

Women's needs are childish now, are they?

Unbelievable.

trans peoples experience of sex is “real” and it’s not a “fallacy”. It’s just different to your experience of sex.

Right, so what do trans women and women have in common with each other?

Um - because women were the ones born female? It's not that deep. They could see the two sexes in the animals they bred and they could see those same sexes in themselves!

Obviously people were able to see and describe the fact that the vast vast majority of human babies were clearly of one sex or the other without having to understand all the nuances of how that happens, just as they were able to fire clay into functional pots without knowing the chemistry and physics behind that process. And based on that observed sex, the child was considered a boy then a man, or a girl and then a woman.

Now undoubtably before the biological processes behind sex were understood some people with DSDs were mis-sexed at birth, but that doesn't somehow mean that sex was being assigned to everyone arbitrarily, or that people who were clearly and unequivocally physically male (had a penis basically) were ever classed as women. Yes some societies had/have subdivisions for feminine males that are somewhat equivalent to trans women, but they were never conisdered to actually be women or treated as interchangeable with women, they were always something separate.

And since most societies historically allowed much less rights and social autonomy to women than men, even men who might today want to identify as trans women preferred to keep their social status as males and enjoy their idea of "female" expression from within their framework of privilege rather than live full time as a "woman" would in that society.

It is a fallacy though, isn’t it. Their experience - this inexplicable subconscious thing that somehow becomes conscious - doesn’t match objective reality. There’s no way of objectively seeing, testing, or defining their experience. You’re arguing that anyone’s thoughts at any time at any place in the world at any stage of history are enough to explain reality. Is that likely?

And how do you explain those who resolve this discrepancy? How do you explain detransitioners? Or desisters? Or those who still claim a trans identity but acknowledge they are still the sex they are?

How do they fit into your pseudoscientific theory?

the recognition/ apprehension/ understanding of self as a woman/ female person.

Not if they don't agree about what the words "woman" and "female" mean...

I mean, it's like I just asked what a piece of cheese has in common with a piece of chalk which identifies as cheese and you said, "they are both types of cheese" without a trace of irony.

No.

One of them is still chalk.

They don't have much in common beyond both being pale coloured solid matter.

The social constructs/expecations connected to gender - gendered ideas about differences in what men and women enjoy/are good at/are bad at/behave like/dress like and so on.

How do you explain detransitioners? Or desisters?

more research is needed on detransition. It’s a minority, but it’s important to understand these experiences. The research that has been done suggests that the main reasons that people detransition are social- to do with a lack of acceptance (particularly by family), experiences of discrimination, failure to pass, etc.
It may also be the case that for some - a minority of people - gender can be more fluid. This is again similar to sexuality- most people have a fixed and definite sexuality- this tends to be permanent / resistant to change,. But for a small number of people sexuality is more fluid- can change with circumstance, (it doesn’t make it any less real).

Or those who still claim a trans identity but acknowledge they are still the sex they are?

this is more to do with semantics and the different words people prefer to use. Trans people do understand what bodies they have, they know what sex they were assigned at birth - how others see their sex etc. some trans people call this “sex” and are happy to use “gender” to describe their internal experience, in order to draw a distinction between the two. Other people prefer to use “sex” to describe their internal experience (subconscious sex) and see their sex as being “mis-assigned” at birth,