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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Three-day ban on Reddit for “hate”

1000 replies

ConversingWithStrangers · 30/12/2024 10:45

The only thing I can think of is posting on a UK sub about male violence. A man said that it’s not just men who have a problem with being violent because he’d been assaulted by a trans woman. I replied, “how did you know your assailant was trans?”.

They literally have subs for men to masturbate to videos of women who have a look of being “dead behind the eyes” they’ve been abused so much.

(It’s either that or somebody doesn’t like my crochet advice).

OP posts:
Thread gallery
13
Lostcat · 04/01/2025 01:00

FlirtsWithRhinos · 04/01/2025 00:58

The social constructs/expecations connected to gender - gendered ideas about differences in what men and women enjoy/are good at/are bad at/behave like/dress like and so on.

Ok yes no this is not what subconscious sex is no . It’s not related to clothes or interests or social roles or personality traits etc.

FlirtsWithRhinos · 04/01/2025 01:03

Lostcat · 04/01/2025 01:00

Ok yes no this is not what subconscious sex is no . It’s not related to clothes or interests or social roles or personality traits etc.

Ok, so to be clear, what you mean by "subconscious sex" is an inner understanding/expactation of what sex your physical body is? But for trans people it's not what their body sex actually is, whereas for other people it is?

WomanXXWorldsOriginsofMothersofAllNations · 04/01/2025 01:04

I’ll ask you again then @Lostcat, can you tell me what a transwoman is?

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 04/01/2025 01:04

Lostcat · 04/01/2025 01:00

Ok yes no this is not what subconscious sex is no . It’s not related to clothes or interests or social roles or personality traits etc.

So it has absolutely nothing to do with other people then?

Lostcat · 04/01/2025 01:06

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 04/01/2025 01:04

So it has absolutely nothing to do with other people then?

Correct

SnowFrogJelly · 04/01/2025 01:07

They literally have subs for men to masturbate to videos of women who have a look of being “dead behind the eyes” they’ve been abused so much

Why would anyone want to post on a site that has this?

NotBadConsidering · 04/01/2025 01:10

Lostcat · 04/01/2025 00:59

How do you explain detransitioners? Or desisters?

more research is needed on detransition. It’s a minority, but it’s important to understand these experiences. The research that has been done suggests that the main reasons that people detransition are social- to do with a lack of acceptance (particularly by family), experiences of discrimination, failure to pass, etc.
It may also be the case that for some - a minority of people - gender can be more fluid. This is again similar to sexuality- most people have a fixed and definite sexuality- this tends to be permanent / resistant to change,. But for a small number of people sexuality is more fluid- can change with circumstance, (it doesn’t make it any less real).

Or those who still claim a trans identity but acknowledge they are still the sex they are?

this is more to do with semantics and the different words people prefer to use. Trans people do understand what bodies they have, they know what sex they were assigned at birth - how others see their sex etc. some trans people call this “sex” and are happy to use “gender” to describe their internal experience, in order to draw a distinction between the two. Other people prefer to use “sex” to describe their internal experience (subconscious sex) and see their sex as being “mis-assigned” at birth,

Edited

more research is needed on detransition. It’s a minority, but it’s important to understand these experiences. The research that has been done suggests that the main reasons that people detransition are social- to do with a lack of acceptance (particularly by family), experiences of discrimination, failure to pass, etc.

This isn’t true.

It may also be the case that for some - a minority of people - gender can be more fluid. This is again similar to sexuality- most people have a fixed and definite sexuality- this tends to be permanent / resistant to change,. But for a small number of people sexuality is more fluid- can change with circumstance, (it doesn’t make it any less real).

But this doesn’t fit with your theory, does it?

And how do you propose to resolve the possibility that children who claim to have a subconscious thought that has somehow become conscious might not actually stick with it, but might have their bodies medicalised before that “fluidity” has a chance to change?

If “gender” is fluid, then surely no one, particularly not children, should medically transition. How do you know who is in that minority you describe?

Trans people do understand what bodies they have, they know what sex they were assigned at birth

What about all the people who don’t believe this though? Make people who claim they are female and have always been female. People who claim they will answer the census question about “sex at birth” with their current claimed sex, because the doctors made a mistake? What do you think of the ideas of these trans people? Are they wrong? Or does your theory not hold because of these people?

Other people prefer to use “sex” to describe their internal experience (subconscious sex) and see their sex as being “mis-assigned” at birth,

So do you think we should not record a newborn baby’s objectively noted physically observable sex because we don’t know what that baby’s “subconscious sex” might be?

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 04/01/2025 01:10

Lostcat · 04/01/2025 01:06

Correct

So why the fuckity fuck are trans women insisting on identifying into this category with me and other women on the basis of this identity we supposedly all share?

Why are they using our spaces and competing in our sporting categories and calling themselves women?

What they are has nothing to do with what we are!

(Which is what I said earlier in the thread.)

Lostcat · 04/01/2025 01:10

FlirtsWithRhinos · 04/01/2025 01:03

Ok, so to be clear, what you mean by "subconscious sex" is an inner understanding/expactation of what sex your physical body is? But for trans people it's not what their body sex actually is, whereas for other people it is?

I think this is a decent approximation, yes. Not everyone will describe the experience in the same way/ with the same words, but this is how it has often been explained to me- it’s like a complete disconnect between the idea/ experience of self and the physical embodiment of self. So you have a female body, but your brain experiences your body as male.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 04/01/2025 01:13

Lostcat · 04/01/2025 01:10

I think this is a decent approximation, yes. Not everyone will describe the experience in the same way/ with the same words, but this is how it has often been explained to me- it’s like a complete disconnect between the idea/ experience of self and the physical embodiment of self. So you have a female body, but your brain experiences your body as male.

Your brain experiences your body as yours. It has no idea what it feels like to be in anyone else's body, male or female.

FlirtsWithRhinos · 04/01/2025 01:14

Lostcat · 04/01/2025 01:06

Correct

So again, why is important to prioritise social protections and rights based on this this thing that cannot be perceived by other people and has absolutely nothing to do with other people over social protections and rights and rights based on body sex which is something that can be perceived by other people and absolutely does impact how other people treat us and what risks they pose to us?

Lostcat · 04/01/2025 01:15

NotBadConsidering · 04/01/2025 01:10

more research is needed on detransition. It’s a minority, but it’s important to understand these experiences. The research that has been done suggests that the main reasons that people detransition are social- to do with a lack of acceptance (particularly by family), experiences of discrimination, failure to pass, etc.

This isn’t true.

It may also be the case that for some - a minority of people - gender can be more fluid. This is again similar to sexuality- most people have a fixed and definite sexuality- this tends to be permanent / resistant to change,. But for a small number of people sexuality is more fluid- can change with circumstance, (it doesn’t make it any less real).

But this doesn’t fit with your theory, does it?

And how do you propose to resolve the possibility that children who claim to have a subconscious thought that has somehow become conscious might not actually stick with it, but might have their bodies medicalised before that “fluidity” has a chance to change?

If “gender” is fluid, then surely no one, particularly not children, should medically transition. How do you know who is in that minority you describe?

Trans people do understand what bodies they have, they know what sex they were assigned at birth

What about all the people who don’t believe this though? Make people who claim they are female and have always been female. People who claim they will answer the census question about “sex at birth” with their current claimed sex, because the doctors made a mistake? What do you think of the ideas of these trans people? Are they wrong? Or does your theory not hold because of these people?

Other people prefer to use “sex” to describe their internal experience (subconscious sex) and see their sex as being “mis-assigned” at birth,

So do you think we should not record a newborn baby’s objectively noted physically observable sex because we don’t know what that baby’s “subconscious sex” might be?

This isn’t true

err ok, ? 💁🏼‍♀️

People who claim they will answer the census question about “sex at birth” with their current claimed sex, because the doctors made a mistake?

yes this is exactly what I said. Did you read my post.?

So do you think we should not record a newborn baby’s objectively noted physically observable sex because we don’t know what that baby’s “subconscious sex” might be?

lol. No I think it’s ok to record observed sex as it may be useful for a range of purposes.

NotBadConsidering · 04/01/2025 01:15

So essentially, and I have said this many a time, Founddog is arguing that being trans is a form of body dysmorphia: a disorder of thinking around the reality of a person’s body.

The difference is the treatment: it’s only for those with a trans form of body dysmorphia that the treatment is to change the body, not help the subconsciousness.

WomanXXWorldsOriginsofMothersofAllNations · 04/01/2025 01:16

Lostcat · 04/01/2025 01:10

I think this is a decent approximation, yes. Not everyone will describe the experience in the same way/ with the same words, but this is how it has often been explained to me- it’s like a complete disconnect between the idea/ experience of self and the physical embodiment of self. So you have a female body, but your brain experiences your body as male.

So I can have a female body and be a transwoman?

Heggettypeg · 04/01/2025 01:16

Lostcat · 04/01/2025 00:20

in comparison with other people?

Its got absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with other people.
There is no comparison involved or requiredz

But if there were no women (old meaning) in the world, how would a transwoman conceptualise their "subconscious sex"? At the very least, surely, they would be looking at other male-bodied people and feeling "I am not like them". (But in what way, exactly?) So other people as a point of reference do come into it. Otherwise all they would have is a sense that their body is somehow "not comfortable", and without other people as comparators, having a not-comfortable body would simply be the norm.

And I'm still not clear how one gets logically from "I wish I had a female body" to "I am a woman" except via assuming that women resemble you (and each other) in some other-than-bodily way. But what way is that? What is "womanhood" in the abstract?

FlirtsWithRhinos · 04/01/2025 01:16

Lostcat · 04/01/2025 01:10

I think this is a decent approximation, yes. Not everyone will describe the experience in the same way/ with the same words, but this is how it has often been explained to me- it’s like a complete disconnect between the idea/ experience of self and the physical embodiment of self. So you have a female body, but your brain experiences your body as male.

Ok. But why is "not being a thing but feeling like you should be" the same as actually being that thing?

Lostcat · 04/01/2025 01:19

Heggettypeg · 04/01/2025 01:16

But if there were no women (old meaning) in the world, how would a transwoman conceptualise their "subconscious sex"? At the very least, surely, they would be looking at other male-bodied people and feeling "I am not like them". (But in what way, exactly?) So other people as a point of reference do come into it. Otherwise all they would have is a sense that their body is somehow "not comfortable", and without other people as comparators, having a not-comfortable body would simply be the norm.

And I'm still not clear how one gets logically from "I wish I had a female body" to "I am a woman" except via assuming that women resemble you (and each other) in some other-than-bodily way. But what way is that? What is "womanhood" in the abstract?

But if there were no women (old meaning) in the world, how would a transwoman conceptualise their "subconscious sex"? At the very least, surely, they would be looking at other male-bodied people and feeling "I am not like them". (But in what way, exactly?) So other people as a point of reference do come into it. Otherwise all they would have is a sense that their body is somehow "not comfortable", and without other people as comparators, having a not-comfortable body would simply be the norm.

I mean this is definitely valid / interesting. How would any? (Trans or non trans) people experience gender/ sex if there were no other people around? I can’t answer that. I don’t think anyone could.

And I'm still not clear how one gets logically from "I wish I had a female body"

It’s not “I wish I had a female body”. This isn’t it at all. It’s an actual experience of self as female.

NotBadConsidering · 04/01/2025 01:19

Lostcat · 04/01/2025 01:15

This isn’t true

err ok, ? 💁🏼‍♀️

People who claim they will answer the census question about “sex at birth” with their current claimed sex, because the doctors made a mistake?

yes this is exactly what I said. Did you read my post.?

So do you think we should not record a newborn baby’s objectively noted physically observable sex because we don’t know what that baby’s “subconscious sex” might be?

lol. No I think it’s ok to record observed sex as it may be useful for a range of purposes.

yes this is exactly what I said. Did you read my post.?

Yes, I read your post. Your point about this debunks the idea that trans people know and acknowledge the sex they are. Clearly many don’t. So which is it?

Lostcat · 04/01/2025 01:20

FlirtsWithRhinos · 04/01/2025 01:16

Ok. But why is "not being a thing but feeling like you should be" the same as actually being that thing?

its not “feeling you should be”. It’s experiencing self as actually being.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 04/01/2025 01:21

Lostcat · 04/01/2025 01:19

But if there were no women (old meaning) in the world, how would a transwoman conceptualise their "subconscious sex"? At the very least, surely, they would be looking at other male-bodied people and feeling "I am not like them". (But in what way, exactly?) So other people as a point of reference do come into it. Otherwise all they would have is a sense that their body is somehow "not comfortable", and without other people as comparators, having a not-comfortable body would simply be the norm.

I mean this is definitely valid / interesting. How would any? (Trans or non trans) people experience gender/ sex if there were no other people around? I can’t answer that. I don’t think anyone could.

And I'm still not clear how one gets logically from "I wish I had a female body"

It’s not “I wish I had a female body”. This isn’t it at all. It’s an actual experience of self as female.

Edited

But they aren't actually experiencing themselves as female, because they are not female. They are actually experiencing themselves as male, because they are male__.

Do you think Isla Bryson was experiencing himself and his penis as female whilst he was raping those women?

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 04/01/2025 01:22

Lostcat · 04/01/2025 01:20

its not “feeling you should be”. It’s experiencing self as actually being.

You can't actually be something you are not. Female is just about the one thing trans women cannot actually be.

Lostcat · 04/01/2025 01:22

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 04/01/2025 01:21

But they aren't actually experiencing themselves as female, because they are not female. They are actually experiencing themselves as male, because they are male__.

Do you think Isla Bryson was experiencing himself and his penis as female whilst he was raping those women?

Edited

But they aren't actually experiencing themselves as female

but they are. This is what you have to try to imagine/ understand, because this is what it is, as impossible as that sounds to you,

NotBadConsidering · 04/01/2025 01:23

And what about trans men? How does

“the recognition/ apprehension/ understanding of self as a man/male person.”

fit with getting pregnant and giving birth?

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 04/01/2025 01:24

Lostcat · 04/01/2025 01:22

But they aren't actually experiencing themselves as female

but they are. This is what you have to try to imagine/ understand, because this is what it is, as impossible as that sounds to you,

It doesn't just sound impossible, it actually is impossible.

There is nothing about the female experience which doesn't relate to being a member of the childbearing sex.

PS - can you answer the question about Isla Bryson please?

Lostcat · 04/01/2025 01:24

NotBadConsidering · 04/01/2025 01:23

And what about trans men? How does

“the recognition/ apprehension/ understanding of self as a man/male person.”

fit with getting pregnant and giving birth?

Well it doesn’t. In the same way that having a penis doesn’t “fit” with an experience of self as female:

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