Three-day ban on Reddit for “hate”

[ConversingWithStrangers]

The only thing I can think of is posting on a UK sub about male violence. A man said that it’s not just men who have a problem with being violent because he’d been assaulted by a trans woman. I replied, “how did you know your assailant was trans?”.

They literally have subs for men to masturbate to videos of women who have a look of being “dead behind the eyes” they’ve been abused so much.

(It’s either that or somebody doesn’t like my crochet advice).

Well, that wasn't me. But I would submit that it is mocking the illogical and dangerous gender ideology rather than individual people enmeshed in it.

@Lostcat I've answered your question. How about you answering @AstonScrapingsNameChange 's questions at 16.20

Ah apologies I thought you were defending it.

also - Who are “the people enmeshed” in this “dangerous and illogical ideology”? And how exactly are they “enmeshed in it?

Are they trans people, enmeshed by fact of being trans?
and any (non trans) lesbians who are attracted to trans women by fact of their sexual orientation and attraction perhaps 🤔?”

Is that what you mean when you refer to the people enmeshed in these dangerous ideologies?

How about you answer @AstonScrapingsNameChange 's 16.20 questions first?

..... crickets.....

Well, crickets feature heavily in this thread. So do turtles. It really is turtles all the way down when it comes to some of the claims that we have seen.

In the absence of any sensible answers to the many questions that have been posed about gender ideology I think we just have to conclude that there aren't any (which we strongly suspected).

I live in hope that one day someone will make it make sense and we can all admit with relief that we were wrong to be so concerned.
Meanwhile, I'm off to get my telescope out before it clouds over. I'll check in later, just in case Lostcat has prepared an enlightening reply to your very reasonable questions

Oh hai Cat. You finally replied to one of my posts! Not one of the ones I actually tagged you in to ask a specific question of course, just a satirical one replying to someone else that you felt you just really needed to police, but beggars can't be choosers. Welcome!

First up...

Do you realise just how much of your discomfort with what other people are saying is actually happening because you jump on individual posts out of context because you think they prove your case, apply the worst possible interpretation you can think of (this inadvertently telling us far more about how you think than how the poster you are misrepresenting thinks), and then get yourself so worked up about the terrible terrible things no one is actually saying that you are (a) genuinely distressing yourself, (b) possibly distressing the very people you want to protect by creating monsters where none exist, and (c) unable to engage with what posters are actually saying because all you can see is your own projected hate?

If you go back and look at my post in context it's very clear that what I am mocking is the genderist tendency to feel very attached to pre-existing words while insisting on using them in ways that make them meaningless. It is a very odd hallmark of this social movement.

Second up...

I do not, and never have had, any issue with the feelings trans people describe or their desire to have society recognise them as valid. On the contrary, I think the experiences of trans people are an important voice and if we can get past this stupid idea that sex and gender cannot coexist as separare things, trans people and feminists will be allies against Patriarchal gender norms. You are welcome to check my posting history on other threads where I have said this many times. I object only to the TRA and other allies insistence that all the words that already existed to mean things specific to sex have to be repurposed to mean mental gender because I believe this is unjust and harmful to women (original sex based meaning), to same sex attracted people, and indeed to trans people especially young people who are trying to express their mental gender through attempting to adjust their physical sex, and attempt ultimately doomed to fail and carrying with it significant risk of bodily harm.

young people who are trying to express their mental gender through attempting to adjust their physical sex and attempt ultimately doomed to fail and carrying with it significant risk of bodily harm.

This tells me everything I need to know about your supposed support for trans people and your understanding of being trans/ trans issues.
This isn’t just about words, if it were it would be very easily resolved.
What it’s really about is the desire to police categories of sex, gender and sexuality, and about abject intolerance for people who fail to conform to socially dominant, fixed ideas about these categories

Presumably now I have clarified your misunderstanding you realise you were wrong. I won't expect an apology for your frankly vile accusation, but I will bookmark my very clear rebuttal post ad any time I see you use my post as an example of your false allegations about "the collective you" I will post a link to my rebuttal post.

I will not allow my words to be maliciously weaponised to evidence a lie.

To the contrary I’m still at a loss.

However your last couple of posts suggest that you want to believe you mean well, at least, which is something.

And this- ( if you delete the “stupid idea” bit-) is really encouraging.

On the contrary, I think the experiences of trans people are an important voice and if we can get past this stupid idea that sex and gender cannot coexist as separare things, trans people and feminists will be allies against Patriarchal gender norms.

So despite my long post raising several points and clarifying sonething you originally objected to, l see you are staying true to form in replying only to the part you believe you could misrepresent and weaponise.

This tells me everything I need to know about your lack of understanding of being trans/ trans issues.

Because tell me, if it isn’t just about words, why do you care if Man, Woman, Boy and Girl, Gay, Lesbian and Bisexual just continue to mean what they always did, simply words attached to different types of body? Why can't we find new words for the inner feelings? The existence of trans people is literally proof that the thing they feel is a different thing to sex, so why the big fuss about having words for sex and rights attached to sex? I mean, you say it's not about words but it's the genderists who insist that only the pre-existing words for sex will do, can you explain that?

And can you please, once and for all, explain exactly what this quality is that women, trans and cis, or men, trans ad cis, have in common that is so significant it totally replaces sex in all things, that it drives sexual attraction between two people, that is nothing to do with sex and yet requires bodies be adjusted to approximate a change of sex, and yet is so unknowable and ineffable that no one can be sure what another person's gender even is until they are told, and so quixotic in some people it can change from day to day?

Because you know what? TRAs and nonTRA allies like yourself are so very very good at saying what gender is not, and using that to argue that anything someone like me, who wants to understand Gender within the context of the world where sex is manifestly real and manifestly does has consequences especially for women (original sex based meaning), says about gender is bad and wrong and hurtful and wicked, but somehow so very very bad and saying anything concrete about what gender actually is that could back up the demands (and the personal attacks) you make in its name.

So come on, prove me wrong. Stop playing "if I squint I can read this one thing you said as bad so I am totally justified in dismissing everything else you say", put your metaphorical balls on the line and say something real about what you understand gender and trans identities to be. I'd love to know!

If you delete that part you just have a manifesto to subjugate women's (original sex based meaning) voices and their experience of being female-bodied under Patriarchy in favour of some mental conception of "womanhood". Did you mean to be so misogynistic? Why do you not believe female people (original.sex based meaning) should have the right to their own name and voice?

As I said- this isn’t just about words - if it were it would be easy to resolve. Words are just words.

Yes “sex” (by which I mean the material sexual and reproductive architecture of bodies in all its complexity) matters- and of course these things affect women. And of course we can and must talk about those things.

put your metaphorical balls on the line and say something real about what you understand gender and trans identities to be. I'd love to know!

Ive done this before- repeatedly - but here it is again.

Someone who is trans is someone who understands/ recognises/ apprehends their “sex” as other/ different to their sex as it was understood/ recognised/ observed at birth.

This has sometimes been called “subconscious sex” which is a term I find quite helpful; this is also what people mean by gender identity.

That doesn’t mean that trans people arent aware of their body or their “natal sex” - of course they are aware of these things- but while for most people their natal sex and subconscious sex/ gender is aligned- for trans people their natal sex does not define their “subconscious sex”/ gender.

Trans people, as with non-trans people use the words “ sex” and “gender” in different ways, which makes the conversation somewhat confusing, but whether you use “subconscious sex” or “psychological/ mental sex” or “gender” or just “sex” the point is that there is 1) a sex that is “observed/ assigned/ registered” (whatever you want to call it) at birth, and 2) there is a thing that is our own internal understanding / apprehension of our gender/ sex- our “subconscious sex”. For non-trans people these are aligned (so much so that it is assumed that one causes the other- we take this for granted) . For trans people these two things are not aligned. We don’t know why, but it is very possible that there is a durable biological/ developmental underpinning to this. It is not something over which trans people have control, and it’s not a conscious “belief” or “ideology” that has influenced them. It cannot be “cured” with therapy ;, It is a fundamental aspect of the psyche, akin to sexual attraction/
orientation.

(A certain poster will be along to talk about transmaxxers of course- which is an incel movement and nothing to do with actually being transgender).

Feel free to all now commence telling me I’m an idiot…. (I know how this plays out from here and the posters who will be first in line ).

Yeah, ok. I will ask again.

Please feel free to tell us exactly how you are a spokes person for transgender people again?

How is it that you, personally, have become an arbiter of who is and isn't transgender that you discount the transgender voices you, personally, don't approve of?

I do ask and will keep on asking. Because so far all we have been told is that you have studied in this topic and have expertise in it. And yet.... on these threads speaking for transgender people. And you don't see any issue with this at all....

So, sure... you can lay bets as to who will ask you the question and we can simply point out to readers what your past answers have been. I think at this stage it is up to those reading your posts to make their own conclusions.

What was it that you said.... something about shining lights on posts....

Could you please answer the question regarding the data that you have stated supports your arguments? Where is the data from that poll that supports what you claimed to be the opinions and the attitudes of the majority of lesbians?

Or, is it that you read the article, made your own interpretations of it and never checked the data and now realise that the data in no way supports your claims?

as I said 😂😂😂😂….

Feel free to all now commence telling me I’m an idiot…. (I know how this plays out from here and the posters who will be first in line ). 😂😂🤪😅

To be clear, I’m not a “spokesperson” for transgender people.
I am not myself transgender,
Everything I know about being trans comes from years of study/ research which comprised learning from/ listening to / working with transgender people and those closet to them, and making sense of what I learned with the support of theory/ science.

I am simply explaining to you all what I know, as I was implored to do so by a pp, and because there is so much misunderstanding and misinformation on mumsnet

And are you a lesbian woman?

Um, but the thing is, you haven't actually explained any of that. All you have done is told other people they are wrong, that they are transphobic, that they are gatekeeping.

I've asked some really clear questions in my post above. Perhaps you could use that as a starting point to share your learnings?

Or perhaps, without using the word "woman", describe what qualities women (new genderist meaning) have in common that means they are all women, and how these qualities result in the need for women to at times have separate provisions that exclude men, and why female people (original sex based meaning), contrary to previous belief, do not need at times to have separate provisions that exclude male people (original sex based meaning).

Again, I'm not asking you what trans identities or gender are NOT, I'm asking you what these things ARE. Because without that core understanding that allows society to assess needs and balance impacts this whole thing becomes an exercise in who has the social power to demand something and who has to acquiesce.

No im queer/ pansexual

I just explained to you above what being trans is. Feel free to engage with the content of what I said.

In terms of what non-trans and trans women have in common- it’s simple- it’s the understanding/ apprehension/ “knowing” / recognition of self as woman/female (whichever word you prefer). In other words - in terms of the two aspects I mentioned above- our natal sex (observed, registered, assigned) at birth is different - our bodies are different - but our “subconscious sex” / gender is the same.

But absolutely nothing you say has the support of science. You start from an unscientific premise and so every single thing you say fails.

Science tells us that humans are binary sexed and sex is not changeable. This is scientific fact. You are on a mission to convince everyone this is not true and anyone who says it's true is a bigot.

Every single point you try to make is nonsense. And if you've spent years to get where you are....I feel sorry for the waste of your life. I honestly pity you.

Okey-dokey 😂🤷🏼‍♀️

"subconscious sex" - so just an idea in someone's head, then.

Not an observable, provable, physical, material fact, which is what human sex is.